Last week, the City Centre Airport was once again in the news thanks to a “new” group calling itself Envision Edmonton. Though City Council voted to close the City Centre Airport nearly a year ago, the issue has never really gone away. First there was the delay to accommodate the Edmonton Indy, then there was the lawsuit from Airco (they lost their bid for an injunction to stop the closure last week). The Edmonton Flying Club has also filed suit trying to keep the airport open.
With the AEG turning its attention toward the oil sands, it’s almost like the local media were salivating for someone to reopen the issue. Here’s what the Envision Edmonton press release said:
In response to Mayor, Stephen Mandel’s challenge issued during his State of the City speech – to convince City Council that the City Centre Airport should stay open – a group of local business people stepped forward to propose alternatives.
A group of concerned Edmontonians created “Envision Edmonton” – an independent community organization formed specifically to develop a suitable and economically viable plan to revitalize the City Centre Airport.
I’m really disappointed with how this has been covered in the local media so far. Here is how they reported the “news”:
- New group battles to keep city airport open – Gordon Kent, Edmonton Journal
- City Centre Airport battle continues – Clara Ho, Edmonton Sun
- ‘Envision Edmonton’ hopes to keep muni open – Karen Surman, iNews880
- Local airline loses bid to stop closure of airport runway – CTV Edmonton (it’s included in the Airco story)
I’m sure there was a 60 second piece on the evening news that day too. If you read through those stories, you’ll find that they don’t provide much information beyond what was contained within the press release (as is so often the case, unfortunately). Here are some of the questions that sprung to mind immediately that were not answered:
- Who’s behind the group, and is it really new? Have they been involved in the issue in the past?
- Where have I heard that name before?
- Where can I learn more about the group and its proposed alternatives?
Simple stuff really. Maybe those questions didn’t come to mind for the writers and editors working that day, or maybe they found that answering them was too daunting a task (that might be a valid excuse actually, given that Envision Edmonton still doesn’t have a website…yes, seriously). To be fair to Gordon Kent, his piece did at least treat the group with some skepticism.
It gets much better though. All of those stories use quotes from or paraphrase the press release, which is pretty standard. I’m wondering how they chose what to include, however. Here’s the last paragraph of the press release:
Envision Edmonton is primarily funded by individuals and businesses, many of which have no direct investment in or association with the City Centre Airport, but who are instead dedicated exclusively to helping to make Edmonton a great city.
That’s a pretty cut-and-dry statement, and it ties in nicely with my first question. So I set out to find the answer. Turns out it is completely false (not the last part of course, I’m sure they all want to help make Edmonton a great city).
Here are the Envision Edmonton board members:
- Charles Allard (Chairman)
- Chairman and CEO, Allarco Entertainment
- His father was a well-respected surgeon
- Letter to City Council re: ECCA, July 3, 2009
- Ian Barrigan
- Barrigan Management
- Letter to City Council re: ECCA, March 30, 2009
- Dr. Joseph Fernando
- Phil Milroy
- President, Westcorp
- Letter to City Council re: ECCA, March 17, 2009
- Barry Breckenridge
- AVP & Regional Director, Manulife Financial
- Bob Bentley
- President, Freedom Ford
- Former member of the board, Alberta Enterprise Group
- Letter to City Council re: ECCA, June 11, 2009
- Spoke at the public hearing in June 2009
- Dr. Kerry Pawluski
- Founder, Angel Flight Alberta
- Director, Aviation Edmonton Association
- Spoke at the public hearing in June 2009
- Ralph Henderson
- President, Edmonton Flying Club
- Ed Schlemko
- President, Airco Charters
- Director, Aviation Edmonton Association
- Spoke at the public hearing in June 2009
- Eugene Strilchuk
- General Manager, InfinitAir
- Bruce Ritchie
- President, Aviation Edmonton Association
- Dean Braithwaite
- General Manager & Flight Instructor, Edmonton Flying Club
- Director, Aviation Edmonton Association
- Spoke at the public hearing in June 2009
No direct investment or association with the City Centre Airport huh? Right.
I also have answers for the other two questions I mentioned above. The name “Envision Edmonton” has been used a few times, but was probably best known as the former name for the City of Edmonton’s Strategic Plan. That certainly raised my eyebrows. Of all the names they could have picked, they went with the name of an important City document.
Where can you learn more about Envision Edmonton? That’s a good question. For now you can follow them on Twitter, or you can check them out on Facebook. I suspect you’ll hear more about the group later today after they hold another press conference, this time to actually unveil next steps (the last press conference was a meet-and-greet I guess). Here’s what I think you’ll hear:
- Envision Edmonton will announce that they are launching a campaign to gather 78,000+ signatures to force a plebiscite.
- One alternative, not many as the press release stated. They will announce loose, high level plans to expand business activities at the City Centre Airport, while retaining (and perhaps improving) medevac facilities.
- A website. Maybe. It is 2010 after all.
What you probably won’t hear but might want to know:
- The group has been raising a lot of money to support the campaign. I have heard numbers as high as $700,000. Their total budget, confirmed by Charles Allard, is $500,000. They’re also actively recruiting volunteers.
- They have been making the rounds, and not just locally. Some members of the group visited Yellowknife back in May to try to get the GNWT on board.
- Over the last few months they have been making an effort to leave comments on blogs and post updates on forums (example 1, example 2).
If you know something else that I’ve missed, let me know.
I invite you to read my posts on the City Centre Airport. In particular, you should read this post that outlines some responses to the most common questions (medevac, economic activity, etc) and contains links to additional documents. You might also want to read Scott McKeen’s column from last week. There are also lots of links to resources at NotMyAirport.ca.
UPDATE: As expected, Envision Edmonton announced plans today to get 80,000 signatures to keep the City Centre Airport open. Their campaign website includes the proposed plebiscite and other information. Part of their proposal is a new LRT route, running alongside NAIT to the east of the airport. The group has already raised half of their budget, and will start an ad campaign on TV and radio later this week. I asked Charles if they get the signatures and it goes to a vote and citizens want to close the airport, what’s next for Envision Edmonton? He told me “we’d have to respect the decision of the electorate”. Gordon Kent from The Journal asked a ton of questions, including lots about the funding. He is suggesting (and is correct in doing so, I think) that this could be the most heavily funded campaign in the fall election, more than any other race. He also asked if many of the members or funders of Envision Edmonton are involved with the City Centre Airport. Charles told him no, but as you can see above, that’s just simply not true.
MasterMaq's Blog 
Thanks for doing all of the detective work on this, Mack! Looking forward to seeing how this unfolds…
Great research Mack!
You continue to eviscerate the fuzzy distinction between blogger and journalist Mack. Your comments on churnalism are particularly appropriate here. Great post!
Great post, Mack. Thanks for pressing to get the facts on this “Envision Edmonton” group.
Thanks for doing what the mainstreamers wouldn’t. I thought there was a little too much spin in the press release.
Nice background Mack, looks like the debate IS still alive, as that Edmonton Journal straw poll suggested. Certainly your efforts here suggest that too. Looks like this is going to go beyond a post or two, and a website this time around. People’s lively-hoods are at stake I would expect nothing less. Maybe you could do a similar balanced post on all those business interests who support the closing of the airport – the “Notmyairport” gang…such as NAIT for example.
Love it.
Great digging on Envision. Great calling out of the news release publication we sometimes get in the news.
To Walter’s point, I think the closure side is a little easier to see where they’re coming from. NAIT, for example, eventually wants more land. The city wants LRT and transit routes. Developers, or anyone similar, who spoke in favour of closure would probably be thinking of buying land.
And other people just want a different kind of development.
Thanks everyone. Walter & Jeff: I’ll be writing more about this as appropriate!
Thanks for attending the press conference today, Mack, and for your continued interest in the City Centre Airport. I would, however, like to clear up a couple of things you’ve posted as fact that are simply untrue.
“He also asked if many of the members or funders of Envision Edmonton are involved with the City Centre Airport. Charles told him no, but as you can see above, that’s just simply not true.” – Envision Edmonton has never denied that some of its members have business ties to the airport. The difference is that Envision Edmonton is also comprised of individuals with no business investment in the airport. Note members 1-6 of the Board you listed above (Dr. Fernando possibly being an exception as his expertise lies in medevac operations).
“Over the last few months they have been making an effort to leave comments on blogs and post updates on forums (example 1, example 2).” – Envision Edmonton has not posted to these forums. We post mainly on our Facebook and Twitter sites, which you mentioned above. Any other communication from Envision Edmonton will be tagged with “Envision Edmonton” or “EnvisionEdm” or something similar.
Thanks for clearing these things up, Mack.
This is why blogs have comments – thanks for the clarifications!
Mack,
You mention AEG has turned its attention to the oil sands and away from the City Centre Airport issue. It’s true that AEG has spent some time on issues like sustainable oil sands development and promoting Alberta as an investment destination. In the coming months and years you’ll see AEG take formal positions on a wide range of issues. However, the airport is still a very important issue for us and will continue to be in the future.
We wish Envision Edmonton luck with their campaign and will support them wherever and whenever we can.
AEG is committed to seeing the Edmonton City Centre Airport operational for the remainder of the 56-year lease and beyond — for the benefit of all Albertans.
Thanks David, to be clear I was referring to the news listed on the AEG website. The most recent stuff has all been oil sands related.
I look forward to hearing more about the other issues AEG is passionate about.
Amazing job on the investagtive journalism Mack, thanks for doing this!
You have exposed the people of Envision for who they really are.
If they have the money to spend on a campaign to keep the airport open, let them spend it. Then we will have another side to rebut your wanting to close the airport.
@Envision Edmonton So because only some of the Board Members have obvious links to the airport you are in fact not a special interest group? Hard to believe the others don’t have indirect ties as well.
Nice work Mack. When are you running for council?
Information is a good thing. Some may take offense to various associations between who is involved and who isn’t… and why. But for *me*, well, I don’t care. The issue here is much larger. Contracts and leases are present, and to just toss those aside because the City want’s to develop the land is plain wrong. The legal aspects are certainly one side of things but more importantly is the future.
Where are the EPS, Weather, and Stars folks going to operate from if this happens? Do we shuffle them off the the International? If so, then do we also need a full 24/7 detachment of EPS folks out there “justin case” they are needed? This all smacks of putting some cash into some developers pockets, once again at the expense of the tax payers. We are in a unique position to have our cake, and eat it too.
Oh yes, I can see dispatching Air 1 to cover a criminal suspect chase… oh, wait.. we need to have EPS drive out to the Internaltional first (cough). Must remember to tell the criminals to drive slowly until Air 1 reaches the scene. Yup yup!
My goodness, Mack, you and your friends appear to be awfully scared of putting it to a vote. Any particular reasons why?
I don’t seem to remember any current member of council campaigning on airport closure last time around. Perhaps it would be good to put it to a vote. Or is it that you and your twitterati don’t believe in democracy?
Has anyone ever told you that you have a garden variety christ complex? We don’t want to be saved by you and your all knowing next-gen. You have zero appreciation for the history of this city. You have no respect for the feelings anyone other than yourself.
Remind me again, why are you afraid of a vote?
I can’t imagine that anyone is “afraid of a vote,” Peter. When the airport went to ballot in 1995, just 23% of voters favoured maintaining scheduled air passenger service at the muni. Do you really think there’s greater backing for charter flights, private planes and specialty services — things most people will never use?
If this does go to vote (yet again), I suspect it will be a waste of time and money. Besides, the better question to place on the ballot, alongside the ‘pro’ muni question proposed, is whether we should shut it down entirely, today. For pro-muni individuals, that’s a vote you should fear. The electorate is not likely to be as kind as Council has been with its staged closure.
Hey Peter, perhaps you can actually stick to the discussion at hand instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks. If this is the level the pro-airport group has to sink to, you’ve truly lost the battle. Zero appreciation for Edmonton’s history? No respect for anyone else’s feelings? What a load!
Since many of us are personally identifying ourselves here, why don’t you do the same, in the interest of transparency? And you talk about being scared of putting it to a vote, well why is it that the airport supporters can’t seem to respect the vote of city council?
Mack, you criticize the local media for their coverage of the issue, but having read those stories, they seemed relatively balanced. I was impressed with the length of the iNews 880 story. Normally they’re not that long.
I’m not sure what you’d expect the media to do. The story is likely to run for a while so I don’t think there’s a need to do two-page spreads every time someone has a comment about it. iNews 880 might spend about 15 seconds on it. It’ll ping-pong its way through the next few months and both sides will get their shot.
People don’t have very long attention spans, so keeping the stories short will actually help people get into the story. If it’s too long, people don’t usually read. Not every piece can be an investigative piece. Newsrooms are shrinking, not growing.
To the issue of the airport, it’s no surprise that a group of people with money to burn would try to make it an election issue. That’s politics. I guess it ain’t over until the fat lady boards the last flight out of ECCA.
While the question….Who is behind Envision deserves to be clarified….so we should be aware of who is behind Mastermaq and those that wish the Muni closed. I live outside edmonton so I have never had the chance to vote…but I have an interest in Alberta’s aviation future. I spent over 30 years working in the aviation industry in various communities in Alberta, BC and the Northwest Territories. When I lived in Fort Smith, Prince George, Inuvik or Smithers, my destination for family and business was Edmonton.I was proud of Edmonton’s position as Gateway to the North. When the decision was put to the City of Edmonton to close the Municipal Airport, I felt there was too much taxpayer money being spent….likely by the Edmonton Airport Authority, City of Leduc and County of Leduc convincing the electorate to close this facility. The promises being made about better service to Edmonton never made sense in todays economy…and I don’t believe our air service has improved to any significant degree. It seems to me, the Muni was operating as a full aviation facility in the past when Edmonton had weekly scheduled service to Frankfurt, Amsterdam and London….service we no longer have.
I can’t help but laugh when Edmonton taxpayers complain about lack of services…snow plows etc….a complaint not heard from residents of Leduc. Coincidence??? I think not.
Alain: I expect the media to give more than the regurgitated press releases. In this case we have a new organization springing onto to the scene to save the airport. Knowing who the backers are is a key part of the story. I would also like to have seen some more details on the poll that was quoted. I saw three different numbers quoted in three different stories but none of the stories indicated what the actual questions were.
Peter: I don’t recall any part of Mack’s post indicating a fear of having a vote. Further I doubt the tone of your post will do much to further your cause.
Personally I’ve seen little in the way of public opposition to closing the Muni. I’ve seen a lot of understandable opposition from businesses around the airport and others in wealthy elite of the city. Fair enough. If they can find 80,000 people who would vote to keep it open then a plebiscite is warranted but I think they need to be clear who they are and who they represent.
Lorne: If you think there’s some nefarious group backing the closing of the Muni then tell us who you think it is and/or go and find out. Sidelong insinuations are a tactic to poison a conversation and don’t add anything.
The rest of your post is food for thought. I think Leduc has benefitted since passenger service was consolidated at the International but I have to wonder if the loss of the long haul flights had more to do with the general move to hubs across the whole industry. If so then keeping the Muni open would have served only to starve both airports of a limited amount of traffic available to them.
To those who want to keep the Muni open: There are good arguments on your side and none of them are served by the nasty tone and insinuations I see in your comments.
paul
I never suggested the group backing the closing of the Muni was “nefarious”….but someone paid for the advertising that pushed to close the muni back in 1995 or whenever that was….and Mastermaq has as his headline…Whos behind Envision Edmonton….People should know as well if Mastermaq or Paul Turnbull for that matter have any personal association with the Edmonton Airport Authority or any other group that benefits from the demise of the Muni. Do You?
Mack,why all this campaigning.Few years ago,people of Edmonton have voted on the question of Muni.We all know which side won,and if in democracy majority rules,then the WILL of people should be the law.Seems to me that few rich people in Edmonton wants to run things their way,and to hell with majority vote.
Thanks for letting me get it out of my chest.
“So because only some of the Board Members have obvious links to the airport you are in fact not a special interest group? Hard to believe the others don’t have indirect ties as well.”
Dan – We have never denied that we are a special interest group. Of course all members of our group have a special interest in the future of the City Centre Airport. Otherwise, why would they be members of our group?
The point that Envision Edmonton is trying to communicate re: its membership is that our Board is not comprised of *only* individuals with a business investment in the airport. In other words, for some of our members, the value of the City Centre Airport is about more than money and/or the future of their business at the airport.
If you’re interested in reading more about what the ECCA does, and how it benefits our city and its citizens, check out “The Facts” at www. demandthevote.ca/facts.html. These are the reasons some of our board members have a special interest in the retention of the ECCA, even though they have no direct business investment.
Lorne: Given that the 1995 plebiscite was on consolidating scheduled traffic at the International and not on closing the Muni I’m not sure anybody was paying for ads on closing it. I could be wrong there, but if you’re really interested the Library will have papers archived from then and you can look it up.
Personally I’m not aware of any group I’m involved in having a stake in the Muni nor do I have a personal stake except in living nearby in Westmount and being a lifelong resident (asides from a few years in Montréal).
What this is really about, though, is presentation. Envision Edmonton is lacking on easily accessible information about who they are and the media didn’t bother to dig for it. Mack did dig for it and posted it here.
I have no problem with a group of business owners who have a stake in the Muni campaigning or even trying to get a plebiscite to keep it open. It’s perfectly understandable and acceptable that they’d do this. I do have a problem with not being totally upfront about who they are.
Zlatko, speaking as a small business owner, I can relate to those who would be forced to relocate. Imagine the disruption, it’s not easy, especially for this type of business. People (customers) are creatures of habit and convenience, this will dramatically change behaviours (by design). Business could be lost simply because it’s not convenient. Some skilled people may not keep their jobs because of the travel. Villeneuve is not convenient for anyone other than those already living and working there. I agree that there are a few who would rather their private jets remain at the muni, that said, there are certainly other considerations and we shouldn’t paint with such a broad brush.
Also, I don’t think the entire story on “both sides” has come to light. There are definitely business and political interests on the “closure” side at work too.
It’s simple. Edmonton citizens voted twice now. One to keep city center open and another to consolidate SCHEDULED traffic to the international. These are facts. Edmonton’s city council chose to ignore our democratic decision, and entertained this yet again in the chambers. It’s appalling and I’m infuriated.
Paul: I don’t see indications in the stories Mack quoted that they’re simply just regurgitated press releases. I think the Sun had a quote from the release.
And what would it matter if there was information from the release? Somehow this should not form part of the story?
If the designated spokesman have had some media training, they’ll stay on message and the message will be the same.
I suppose if the reporters involved had kept us all in touch via Google Wave and answered questions on Twitter while they were writing the story, we’d know exactly how the story was crafted. Or, we could let them write the story, and then do follow up stories.
Things develop. Look at the BP story. We certainly couldn’t have known the entire story right off the start and we shouldn’t be expecting it. Small stories have a way of developing into big ones.
I guess this is the modern version of shooting the messenger.
Alain, you make sound points re the press coverage. I’m sure there’s more to come. Contrary to some opinions I think we have strong media in #yeg (despite the fact I STILL can’t comment on EJ) and you speak from professional experience. That said, I think McKeens article was sort of over the top and not as helpful as it could have been.
Is the high school aviation programs not run out of the city center airport when they have the experience required in school and accompanied by a teacher ?
if you take away that airport high schools like Queen Elizabeth High school would lose their aviation program because there is no air strip for students to practice taking off and landing on, or to practice flying in its self. Think about what your doing council before you make a final decision, because there are at least 20 students if not more who take the aviation class every semester in every grade. You take away the city center airport you take away from the next generation. The baby boomers wont be around forever to fly these planes.
Mack,
I really don’t know why you don’t present info on both sides of this fight. So what if Envision Edmonton has interests in the airport, isn’t that why they are fighting to keep it open? Do you not think the land developers downtown have a hand in anyones pockets in council? Of course they do, the close the airport group didn’t win the debate in council. It wasn’t even close. The vote wasn’t based on the info presented.
I was actually asked to run for council by another group as they want to fill all the ridings with pro-airport people. I declined as I cannot fill the roll of a politician.
Council voted to kill an entire industry and the loss of jobs to Edmonton. All in the interest of developers in downtown Edmonton as well as EIA. I have long been involved with the politics at EIA, I know the people well there and I know their agenda.
Council says they want to develop high density housing in downtown Edmonton. Let me tell you something, high-density means higher crime. And we already have a problem with crime in Edmonton that we have never got a handle on.
And being a young blogger, are you not concerned about the loss of jobs to those at the airport in the same age group as you? CCA is one of the busiest in all of North America. The Edmonton Flying Club is one of the largest flying schools in Edmonton. It trains young pilots who become instructors who then become airline pilots. It is a full circle that keeps feeding off itself. It is a very important training hub for all of Canada. And it is these young people who will be out of work and out of a career.
I spemnt 25 years in the Canadian Airforce, I now work in Medical (Cancer) Research at the U of A. I only wish that you would open your eyes to both sides of this debate.
Paul Turnbull –
“What this is really about, though, is presentation. Envision Edmonton is lacking on easily accessible information about who they are and the media didn’t bother to dig for it.”
We have no secrets about who we are. Please feel free to visit http://www.demandthevote.ca. There is a newsroom link at the bottom of the page where you can download our press kits, including a list of our membership and press releases.
Thanks for the comment Walter. Not sure why you wouldn’t be able to comment. I don’t think there’s a conspiracy though. 😀
Again, I would urge commenters to be transparent and use their full names.
Gary, your argument that high density simply leads to higher crime is curious. Considering Edmonton is the least dense city in Canada (not referring to city council) then you’d think this city should have the least amount of crime in the country.
The lack of density in Edmonton is precisely what has lead to many of the problems we have in this city. Imagine if the city was twice as densely populated as it is, but with the same population. Imagine that we had half the roads. Well, we might actually have roads that get cleared properly in winter.
Walter, check with Karen Unland, or the @EJ_Cares Twitter account and they should be able to figure out the Journal comments.
Envision Edmonton, your board is certainly listed, but their interests and business connections to the airport could only be found here. At Mack’s blog. I think that’s the point of all of this. (In relation to your materials, but more so in relation to the news stories done so far.)
And the number of planes, pilots, etc… in your board really clashes with this statement on your news releases: “…many of which have no direct investment in or association with the City Centre Airport…”
I think it’s fine if a group wants to fight for something, and they can definitely have an interest in it, but just be clear about that. Otherwise your conversation gets distracted.
I kind of chuckle when people demand to know all of the interests and connections on the pro-closure side. They’re all fairly obvious and up front.
The EIA could benefit, as could other regional airports under the authority’s watch. NAIT will have expansion room readily available when they want it. The City has new transit routes, and the potential for new neighbourhoods. Developers, though not stepping forward yet, could make money building on the land. Environmental companies will clean it first, making some money.
And some people, like me, think sustainable, core, neigbourhoods are better than an airport that’s not doing much for the larger population of Edmonton on a regular basis. That will take the will of councillors, and city staff, to slow the proliferation of suburbs, but that’s the risk with something this big.
I don’t use the airport now, I won’t benefit (directly) from it closing. I think there’s a lot of people, maybe younger, who also fall into this category.
I get the impression that some people feel like there HAS to be money behind the pro-closure side. This was a big, public debate. As a few councillors stated they had never heard from so many people via e-mail before. The Internet, through people like Mack, mobilized those in Edmonton who would prefer a dense neighbourhood.
That, in my opinion, is the biggest factor at play on the pro-closure side. People without money to gain choosing something for their city and letting councillors hear about it.
Alain, great point about crime and density.
Jeff:
“I kind of chuckle when people demand to know all of the interests and connections on the pro-closure side. They’re all fairly obvious and up front.”
I have seen one person ask about this. In this thread.
Jeff:
By the way, wouldn’t it be better to have this “World Class Sustainable Green Smart Grown Community” on land that is already slated for development currently in the downtown core?
Like say, the Quarters?
Actually, it’s popped up a couple of times in these comments, including questions of who’s behind Mastermaq and those who would push for closure.
The Quarters, already being in the planning stages, is a great place to continue with new core development. 104 Street is also a shining example. It sounds like ProCura is making moves in the 109 Street area too.
But, we keep seeing new development and neighbourhoods on the fringes of Edmonton, and I hope future councils will push that to the City Centre lands they’ll have available.
Interesting how, with a lot of you folks, there is this undercurrent of 70s-style class warfare in your arguments.
Guess what Mack — you ARE the establishment!
David
Jeff, you haven’t been paying attention. We showed during the campaign last year there is no demand for ECCA lands at current absorption rates.
The land itself if pretty much worthless. As mentioned in Scott McKeen’s column today, the downtown is dominated by surface parking lots.
You make ECCA land available, and you doom those infill projects.
David
If the public isn’t questioning Mack’s motives as much as he is questioning Envision Edmonton… they should.
Envision: Take the list of board members that you’ve buried in the Press Kit zip file and put it on its own web page. Include a bio for each board member. Clearly label and put a link to that page on your front page.
Density has little to do with crime. According to the few studies I’ve read this morning, it’s about the socioeconomic status of the individuals living in those developments than the dense nature of the developments themselves.
For reference: http://proceedings.esri.com/library/userconf/proc00/professional/papers/PAP508/p508.htm
http://www.hcd.ca.gov/hpd/mythsnfacts.pdf (WARNING PDF: see myth #8)
I don’t think we’re talking about using the ECCA lands in the next few years. And, again, if council(s) and city staff push for fewer neighbourhoods and development on the fringes of Edmonton it will have to come inside or not be built.
But I think our population will continue to grow, developers will continue to want to make money and the ECCA lands will be a nice option in decades to come.
Phil, and others questioning motives and backing of Mack and the pro-closure side, there’s money to be made (eventually) and land to be hand. I don’t think that’s a secret. I think Mack’s point of connecting the Envision board members to the airport was that it’s not being openly disclosed in their news materials.
Jeff,
Don’t you think we took population growth into consideration when we did our modelling? Boy, when people don’t want to hear it, they just don’t want to hear it.
David
Jeff – Thanks I did contact both at EJ almost 2 wks ago…that’s an aside from this discussion…
Also, there IS money and political will behind the pro-closure side, just as there is behind the pro-open side. From my perspective it just seems like one group is painted as bad people for wanting to save an industry, while the other side seems to think they’re altruistic and shiny clean.
I haven’t made my personal decision on this issue as to which side I’m on, seems odd to say given how old the issue is, but I’m looking to educate myself beyond the rhetoric of either side. Unfortunately, it seems there’s lots of that to go around.
It’s a wonder what’s available with a little bit of research.
David, you continually imply that closing ECCA and pursuing a strategy of densification are mutually exclusive. That’s just not true.
To borrow a line from the Envision Edmonton campaign: Edmonton can have it all!
Population growth is not the issue. How and where those people live is the issue. We need a coherent, unified strategy to tackle that. Closing the airport and urbanizing the core are both ways to achieve the same vision.
Keeping the airport open will definitely not bring us any closer to the denser city we so desperately need to be. I think closing it can and will.
Mack,
Respectfully, we need a little more than just what you believe.
People involved in development, who have payrolls and skin in the game, disagree with you.
David
David, I think it’s important that this discussion is starting to gather momentum – it vital that we have it. I have work to do, in terms of better sharing and articulating why I feel the way I do. I will continue to pursue that. The answer isn’t what I believe or what you believe, but will be the result of collaboration between all parties involved.
For those of you wondering “who is behind MasterMaq” it’s just me. I describe myself as a passionate Edmontonian. I’d encourage to read/watch this to get a better idea of where I’m coming from:
https://blog.mastermaq.ca/2010/06/04/local-action-global-recognition-at-pkn7/
Paul Turnbull –
“Envision: Take the list of board members that you’ve buried in the Press Kit zip file and put it on its own web page. Include a bio for each board member. Clearly label and put a link to that page on your front page.”
I’m not sure what the point of this would be, but you’re welcome to explain your thinking. Our board members are also listed in the discussions section of our Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=128559700508107 if you’re not satisfied with the documents found on demandthevote.ca. I’m not sure what part of our membership brings you so much distress. We have never tried to keep our board members a secret.
I never said it brought me distress just that the information could be easier to find and could be more informative. What passed for transparency 20 years ago (put it in a press kit) is not what’s expected anymore. It would also be nice to see the full details of the poll you commissioned: the actual questions and responses, not just your interpretations.
Mack,
All of this talk about shifting the housing preferences of suburban dwellers into the inner city is good. I live in an inner city neighbourhood and very much worry about the loss of residents to the suburbs. In particular, I worry about losing the schools that my kids would eventually attend.
But by closing ECCA and driving most of its existing industries to the fringes of the city or into neighbouring communities, we’re boosting economic activity OUTSIDE the inner city core and making the case for moving to the suburbs stronger, not weaker.
I grew up in Fort McMurray, spent some time in Calgary, and am now a proud Edmontonian. I like to think i’ve got a better understanding than the average Edmontonian about the dynamics of our north-south economic corridor and the challenges our city faces within it. I would love to see Edmonton actually take its role as Gateway to the North seriously and maximize the infrastructure we have to serve this vital and expanding client base.
I know its hard for a lot of us who spend our time solving the world’s problems through social media (yours truly included) to remember that there are economic generators beyond IT, academia, and government, but a great deal of our city’s economic future is tied to how well we serve rural areas and the “hands on” industries they represent.
If we forget that, we’ll have all kinds of lovely and unique housing sitting on ECCA lands that might have been filled by bright and enthusiastic Albertans and their families. But they won’t be living in our urban core because we’ll have made it far easier for them to make a life closer to where they’ll be earning a living – in the suburbs.
Hi, all.
I’ve been watching this discussion (and lots like it) from the sidelines for a while, but I’m starting to feel compelled to weigh in. I want to get a couple of facts about me out of the way up front: I am an Edmontonian, I don’t own or operate or work for a business at City Centre Airport (or any aviation-related business at all, for that matter), and I don’t have any relationship with Envision Edmonton. I am, however, a private pilot. I would hope this doesn’t disqualify my thoughts any more than a person would be disqualified for weighing in on a potential school closure just because they were a parent.
I’m not rich, I don’t own a “private jet”, and in fact I don’t own a plane at all. I also don’t work as a pilot for a living. I’m just someone who had dreams about learning to fly since childhood, and managed to finally make those dreams reality in the past few years when I completed my training and earned my Private Pilot’s License. I don’t fly often — I manage to get up in the air every few months, when I manage to have enough money to rent a small Cessna — but I have definitely come to appreciate the airport and what it adds to our city.
(cont’d…)
The main thing that prompted me to post is the prevalent implication that those who want to keep the airport open are “in it for the money,” or are acting out of some selfish financial interest. Obviously, many of the people who are concerned about the closure are users of the airport like me (much like, as I alluded above, parents tend to be the ones who get worked up about school closures). What often seems to get overlooked in these discussions is that the airport is currently owned by us (that is, by Edmontonians, through the city), and that it’s operated (via the lease agreement with Edmonton Airports) without costing individual taxpayers a cent. Like our roads, schools, etc., it’s a public asset; unlike those things, we don’t have to pay any tax to support it.
I would like to invite the critics to go watch the planes taking off and landing at City Centre some time. You’ll probably notice two things: There are actually quite a number of planes taking off and landing (over 70,000 last year, I believe), so it’s not like it’s an unused facility; secondly, most of the planes are small single-engine prop planes (Cessnas and the like), not private jets. I expect that most of the people flying out of City Centre are your friends and neighbors, Edmontontonians (and those from surrounding communities) not unlike yourselves. Sure, general aviation is not something that all Edmontionians are engaged in, but it’s also not just something for the “rich”. [I may have to save up to fly, but it’s still cheaper than smoking!] Likewise, the people employed by the business at the airport are Edmontonians, and people who would likely have to relocate to Cooking Lake or Villeneuve, if they can still find work in the field they love, with the reduced number of positions that would come with reduced demand. (I, for one, am not certain I would have been able to pursue my pilot’s license while holding down my full-time job, if I had to commute well out of the city for my training.)
(cont’d…)
Would it be tragic if I couldn’t fly out of City Centre any more? No, of course not. Still, walking away (permanently!) from something that makes Edmonton special, when continuing to operate the airport would cost us nothing in taxes, seems rather short-sighted, even if not everyone is an aviation enthusiast.
Further, I am genuinely afraid that if the total closure does go through, that we’ll just end up with a decaying eyesore. I’m reminded of the Charles Camsell Hospital here in Edmonton. Despite big talk about redeveloping the site as a grand housing project (sound familiar?), once the site was sold to private interests, the new owners realized there wasn’t enough demand to actually make it worthwhile to do anything with the hospital. So, there it sits, abandoned since 1996, windows broken and the building decaying in plain sight. If the city sells out our (yes, our) airport to developers, who’s to say the same thing won’t happen when they realize how much remediation will need to be done, and with demand for housing not likely to justify a large-scale development of that sort? If that happens, and in 14 years I end up driving by what used to be the City Centre Airport and see it rotting in place like the Camsell, instead of being the lively center of northern Alberta’s aviation community as it is now, it will break my heart.
(cont’d…)
I truly do not understand the apparent glee with which some of the pro-closure crowd declare that we should ‘shut it down.’ I understand why developers may want it, I understand why NAIT may want parts of it, etc., but I don’t understand why an average citizen would want to see it shut down and sold off.
Anyway, I didn’t intend for that to turn into a novel-length ramble. I’d be happy to hear others’ thoughts, even those who disagree with me.
~Ed
Ed, very well written, and the use of the word “glee” is most appropriate. Further, developers I’ve communicated with “don’t” want it right now…your direct experience in all of this is compelling.
Blake,
I too grew up in Fort McMurray but chose to live in Edmonton. Well said.
Mack grew up (or at least spent a lot of time) in the Territories I believe, so he knows — to some extent — of what we speak.
Well said though.
Paul Turnbull – I’ve posted the results from the Environics research we conducted in April 2010 to our Facebook group under photos. http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=128559700508107&v=photos
Ed – Thank you for your very honest submission. I really enjoyed reading it. Your Charles Camsell Hospital analogy hits the nail on the head.
Blake – I grew up in Inuvik, NT. “Going south” always meant flying to Edmonton.
Ed – Thanks for the comment. I have a few points:
1) The average citizen wants to close the airport because the average citizen sees no benefit from the airport. The vast majority of Edmontonians do not use the muni, and do not benefit from it directly, or even indirectly in most cases.
2) I agree, we need to make sure that after closure the airport lands do not become an eyesore. Fear of that happening is no reason to just go with the status quo, however.
And finally, to Ed and many others, it’s simply not true that the airport doesn’t cost taxpayers anything. This was made very clear during last summer’s debate. From Edmonton Airports:
“There is a cost. The quantum of the fees assessed at City Centre Airport are set to ensure that all operating costs are covered and a contribution is made towards its capital costs. Like most general aviation airports, the City Centre Airport cannot fully pay for its capital costs. Those costs are subsidized by the users of EIA. Also, the ten year capital requirements of the airport approximate $35M and one of the more significant items is storm water improvements. It is expected that the city’s contribution towards the completion of that component is up to $10M.”
Mack,
I think you’ll need to back up your assertion that the average citizen wants to close the aiport. But if that’s the case you should have no problem holding a plebiscite.
As for your “cost” explanation, strikes me as the same analsis applies to every piece of public infrastructure under the sky — especially public transit, which is subsidized to the hilt by non-users.
I look forward to you using this measure going forward with all public policy issues. That’s a can of worms for you, right there.
David
Envision: Thanks! Much appreciated.
If developers really need land then they should buy private land instead of stealing city land. Edmonton taxpayers already voted twice, once to keep city center open and then again to consolidate scheduled air traffic to the International. But the greedy city council chose to ignore democracy, as usual.
To be fair, taxpayers should vote against an LRT system also, because very few will ever use an LRT. The “taxpayer funded” LRT should go to a vote, as should the “giving away of the airport”, because innocent taxpayers are going to pay the bills. Dedicated bus lanes would have been cheaper than an LRT, and 1000 buses could have been purchased for the amount wasted on the LRT.
David,
I didn’t say anything about public transit or any other piece of infrastructure, so I’m not sure why you bring them up. Obviously they are also subsidized.
All I’m saying is that the messaging from Envision is once again misleading. Saying the airport “receives absolutely no funding from Edmonton taxpayers” is factually incorrect. It gives the impression that the airport pays for itself, which just isn’t true.
Mack,
It may be oversimplified to suggest ECCA costs nothing, but it’s just as silly to use those capital costs to suggest the airport is subsidized.
The airport breaks even or turns over a dividend most years despite neglect and mismanagment. Your LRT is funded for most part by taxpayers who never use it, and will never break even for cash flow.
David
Like others, I have been lurking for the past few days.
Envision Edmonton – how many signatures have you received on your petition so far?
Ed brought up the Charles Camsell Hospital. I was there for when it closed in 1996, and driving by it now brings me a great sadness. I am disappointed that anyone allows a building once so great to be nothing more than an eyesore. It is up to the city and the concerned citizens who want the airport closed to put pressure on the city and private businesses to get the ball rolling – and to keep pressuring them until the new community/area/etc is built. (Providing council’s decision to close it still stands.)
And to Richard Blakely, who commented on the 1995 referendum. 1995 was a different time, and many of these next-gen-ers were not around for the vote. My guess is that you’ll see (and have seen) change in election results because of this. This isn’t 1995 anymore, and things change.
Lori, so you are saying that referendum/plebiscites don’t mean anything to future generations? Dates are attached to these for a reason… if the times/will of the people change then there should be another referendum/plebiscite to express that change – not a simple vote/discussion by City Council.
When I see the lengthy comments by Ed in this blog it inspires me to comment. I will be equally lengthy. Even though the airport is not a huge issue to him personally he took the time to support it. I will try to express my appreciation for people like that. I have heard it argued that the airport is only for a few rich guys with their executive jets. I beg to differ.
I have worked in the general aviation industry as a pilot for 30 years. I should have a pretty good understanding of how these things work out. It is true that most all employers that I have worked for are in fact comfortably well off if not just plain rich. One thing that “rich” guys do with their money is operate airplanes, often as a business and sometimes for their personal use. The real cost in operating these airplanes is the technical staff they employ…continued
For those of us employed in this industry, we don’t see it as a waste. I work as a medevac pilot. For each of these Beech King Air aircraft you see arriving at the city airport you are looking at many jobs. To man one plane 24 hours a day requires at least three shifts of pilot plus copilots employed. That is six pilot jobs. In addition several engineers and apprentices are employed to insure the aircraft is maintained and inspected to a very rigorous standard. There is a separate equivalent sized crews of paramedics and EMT’s to man a medevac aircraft plus their supervisors, dispatchers, etc. After that the small companies that operate these aircraft must also employ a chief pilot, operations manager, and several administrative personnel. The full time engineering staff are not able to do certain specialized jobs such as avionics , certain electrical systems , airframe crack inspections so these jobs are hired out to local specialists. Nav Canada then charges the operator fees to pay the local controllers who sit in dark rooms watching radar screens directing the air traffic. Of course we also have equipment operators to maintain the runways especially in winter and the refuelling and servicing personnel and their managers. I regret I cannot name all the positions dependant on running the airplane. Each medivac plane certainly employs over 20 people with good technical jobs. There are so many sad faces when their jobs are attacked through closure of an airport. This airport is located only a few minutes from two major hospitals, so I should mention at end of the day another life can be saved…continued
Other aircraft employ many people too. While an executive jet may appear to be a rich man’s play thing, there is a secret in the industry all of us who work in it understand. The wealthy owner is not the real beneficiary of the executive aircraft. The real beneficiaries are all of us who get good paying jobs to maintain, fly, and carry out the administration and control of the airplane and its operating environment. The wealthy owner is really the poor guy who is constantly signing pay checks and paying bills. If you take away the airport for them to fly into they can go to another city to spend their money and do business, however this is not necessarily that easy for the large group of employees. I will try to explain through one case I know well enough, that is, my own… continued
I used to work in a northern community flying small airplanes, some on wheels, some on skis, some on floats. I had four children. My second son was severely handicapped with autism. After 15 years of the best efforts we could maintain we were finally forced to move to the city where we could find help. It was extremely hard at first but we ultimately found a group home for the autistic boy near Edmonton’s city center airport. I knew it would be tough to find a job in the competitive environment at this airport, and ultimately failed. Nevertheless , I spent every nickel I had to buy a house beside the airport. This provided me a way to visit my family and help with my autistic sons program even though I had to take an out of town Medevac job by which I would fly home to Edmonton city airport on a regular basis. I thought the plan would work because when we bought the house and set up my son in a group home nearby the airport, the airport was supposed to be on a lease that would continue for 50 years. This way I have coordinated my work with caring for my autistic boy (now a young man). He is not able to speak at but is using a limited form of sign language. I can’t stop having big ambitions for his future. The airport closure is very drastic for us because I don’t know how I could recreate a similar environment for him somewhere else….continued
Some would just say why don’t I just get another job, not related to the airport. The fact is I’ve already tried twice to get into the construction industry but failed to make a living. I have found that I really am a one skill guy. Flying airplanes seems to be that only way to a steady pay check for me. Incidentally almost all of my pay check (like many who work out of town) gets spent in Edmonton. I don’t know if many people realize how much out of town money gets funnelled into Edmonton through the City Center airport.
In the past some of my peers have told me that I am a fundamentally selfish person, working to achieve selfish goals. I cannot argue with that. I also can’t argue with those that say they don’t personally use the airport so it might as well be closed. I guess our logic is the same. While selfishness is a basic instinct for many of us, I sure appreciate those who trying to keep the airport open. My thanks to Ed, to David Maclean, Daryl Bonar and to every one of the directors of Envision Edmonton. I will be donating what I can afford to them.
So this guy comes to my door. He’s wearing black pants, black shirt, black hat, and dark glasses. He has NO CITY ISSUED ID, which, last time I checked, was REQUIRED to canvas, and he won’t identify himself, and is extremely evasive at my questions.
I insist on seeing ID, he takes out his drivers license and holds it almost 10 feet away. He tells me that he is paid by the Government of Canada.
Really.
I would have supported this initiative, but with representation like this, all I can say is BEWARE. These people are NOT on the up and up, and in my opinion are simply one step removed from the aggressive types selling power contracts.
A little honesty would go a long way, and that is simply not being demonstrated.
You won’t get my signature.
It is hard to see how cutting off outside money and the 1000 jobs at the municipal airport will help Edmonton. Less money in the city means less building. The Charles Camsell Hospital was closed 15 years ago. If developers don’t think that site is worth developing(It still sits vacant 1 km from city center airport)why destroy a well developed site operated by real people with real jobs bringing into the city real money from outside.
note to Mack- it appears the comment by fRed above is anonymous and doesn’t make any specific mention of the subjects on this blog. Perhaps it was cut and pasted to this blog by mistake.
I realize that the airport is used by a small percentage of Edmontonians. I realize for most it probably seems like a great chunk of land the city can make a fortune on with no downside.
I am a Flight Paramedic in northern Alberta. I know as a fact that people will die as a direct result of the airport closing. While the vast majority of patients being flown into Edmonton from rural Alberta, surrounding Provinces and the Territories will simply be inconvenienced by the closure I would personally have lost patients if the airport was not there. The proximity to the two highest level acute care centres we have in northern Alberta is unbeatable.
There were close to 10,000 patients flown by fixed wing and rotary air ambulances last year, the vast majority came through the CCA. Even though you may not know any of those people that need the airport there for their survival, do they not deserve the best chance we can give them?
For me, it comes down to money and development vs quality and value of life. What is an acceptable number of people who will have increased suffering and increased morbidity/mortality if the airport is closed. The number of people who will die will probably be less than a few hundred. If one of those “few” were known to you, would it be an acceptable price for progress?
Just food for thought…
I was going to make a comment and it turned into a blog post:
http://alainsaffel.com/envision-edmonton-close-ecca/
I wanted to get more acquainted with the topic of the City Centre airport closure. Although I am a new resident of Edmonton, I live relatively close to the CCA and hear the buzzing of small planes even late at night which is quite annoying. Nevertheless, I can say that after reading all the comments on both sides of the spectrum, I believe the most appropriate action that should be taken is the one that has already been made by City Council- CLOSE THE AIRPORT!
What is the purpose of having the City Centre Airport nowadays? To hold Indy races which will no longer happen after this year? To land planes for the business elite? What is its function? I mean let’s look at a couple of City Centre airports in existence. Chicago has Midway airport which is an alternate to O’Hare and is used for regional carriers. Porter Airlines operates out of Toronto’s City Centre Airport alongside private jets. But Downsview Airport is still in existence because of Bombardier but the military has long since left the base and now has a National Park and a Hangar that utilized for various activities.
The City is looking to utilize the airport lands for expansion of the LRT network northwards from NAIT as well as new development. This is an opportunity that cannot be passed up. Intensification could not exist because of the flight path. With the closure this can happen.
Brian, hospitals can retrofit their roofs by having landing pads. Those are possible. So please do not use the excuse that rural Albertans will die as a result of the closure. This is the rural-urban divide that is plaguing Edmontonians, let alone Albertans.
I am trying to understand the purpose of Envision Edmonton. Is it a stall tactic against transit expansion? Is it the fear that intensification of neighbourhoods brings crime and will destroy existing ? If that is their M.O., then its those old school NIMBYs must realize its time for a change. It is YOUR “conservative” antics that have prevented the city from growing inward. History is that – HISTORY. Time to move on and accept the fact that the city and region needs to change in order to be competitive and make it attractive place to live. Holding on to something that serves no purpose because of HISTORY any longer does not make economic sense in this day and age. If Yankee Stadium could be demolished, Edmonton City Centre Airport can be closed!
I wanted to get more acquainted with the topic of the City Centre airport closure. Although I am a new resident of Edmonton, I live relatively close to the CCA and hear the buzzing of small planes even late at night which is quite annoying. Nevertheless, I can say that after reading all the comments on both sides of the spectrum, I believe the most appropriate action that should be taken is the one that has already been made by City Council- CLOSE THE AIRPORT!
What is the purpose of having the City Centre Airport nowadays? To hold Indy races which will no longer happen after this year? To land planes for the business elite? What is its function? I mean let’s look at a couple of City Centre airports in existence. Chicago has Midway airport which is an alternate to O’Hare and is used for regional carriers. Porter Airlines operates out of Toronto’s City Centre Airport alongside private jets. But Downsview Airport is still in existence because of Bombardier but the military has long since left the base and now has a National Park and a Hangar that utilized for various activities.
The City is looking to utilize the airport lands for expansion of the LRT network northwards from NAIT as well as new development. This is an opportunity that cannot be passed up. Intensification could not exist because of the flight path. With the closure this can happen.
Brian, hospitals can retrofit their roofs by having landing pads. Those are possible. So please do not use the excuse that rural Albertans will die as a result of the closure. This is the rural-urban divide that is plaguing Edmontonians, let alone Albertans.
I am trying to understand the purpose of Envision Edmonton. Is it a stall tactic against transit expansion? Is it the fear that intensification of neighbourhoods brings crime and will destroy existing ? If that is their M.O., then its those old school NIMBYs who must realize its time for a change. It is YOUR “conservative” antics that have prevented the city from growing inward. History is that – HISTORY. Time to move on and accept the fact that the city and region needs to change in order to be competitive and make it an attractive place to live. Holding on to something that serves no purpose because of HISTORY does not make economic sense in this day and age. If Yankee Stadium could be demolished, Edmonton City Centre Airport can be closed!
Airplanes are a mode of transportation that require airports to land at. If Edmonton closed city center airport then it will have the worst air access in North America. Try naming a city that would be worse.
NAIT’s purpose is to train people for technical jobs. If you try to get rid of infrastructure for aviation,you are also getting rid of all the well paid technical jobs involved in servicing aircraft. The airport is in the perfect location for Nait to develop even more aircraft. maintenance and technical skill programs.
More and much taller high rises can be accommodated downtown with the airport still here. I think they would be built if use of the airport was encouraged, not discouraged. If you send all the executive planes to another city why build there offices here. By the way those executive planes do far more for all the people needed to operate and maintain them then they do for their owners.
Many think that helicopters can do the medevacs, but they simply don’t understand that helicopters only do only 10 percent of air medevacs in Alberta. They only have about half the fuel range and travel roughly half as fast as fixed wing so they aren,t realistic in the picture for most medevacs.
Well said Mark.
Andre – As Mark stated helicopters only do a small percentage of the thousands of medivac’s each year. Of the 15 dedicated medivac aircraft, 11 are King Air 200’s, one is a King Air 100 and the final 3 aircraft are the STARS helicopters.
When you go skiing in Jasper and break your leg, it’s not a helicopter that brings you to the Edmonton, it is a King Air. When you fall off your horse and break your neck in Provost you will not see a helicopter coming to get you.
Draw a 160 km diameter circle around Edmonton, Calgary and Grand Prairie. That is the general response area of STARS. There are exceptions based on circumstance but generally outside that zone is the domain of fixed wing aircraft due to increased range and speed when compared to helicopters.
Medivacs are a small percentage of CCA use and critical patients are a small percentage of those. There will be a real and measurable impact to patient outcomes and survival rates with the closure. The most dangerous time for a patient getting medical care is the time spent in transport regardless of the training the personnel have. The City Centre Airport is ideally situated to decrease that risk to patients.
We are all entitled to our opinion, but there are some moral and ethical questions to be considered, not just dismissed.
Sorry, I should have said 160 km radius.
The problem with the medevac argument is that the airport is just a part of the overall system. There are also ambulances, emergency rooms, etc. As the report on medevac published last year noted, there are opportunities for significant improvement to the entire system.
Why are there only moral or ethical issues to consider when closing the airport? Why aren’t the people asking us to consider medevac also asking for faster aircraft? Reduced bottlenecks in other parts of the system? Surely our moral or ethical obligations don’t start and stop with the airport.
The reason we have to make the case for medevacs into the airport is that it certainly appears yourself and others want it shut down.
If you want to attack the ambulances and waiting room problems perhaps the people involved in running them would be forced to defend themselves if you want them shut down as well.
I’m sorry about the tone but I just got back from a middle of the night medevac. Of course moral and ethical issues don’t end at the airport but the airport is what you are trying to get rid of is. Obviously having more airports and runways reduces bottlenecks in air traffic. You must appreciate I’m quite tired for the tone of this letter.
The reason we are not asking for faster airplanes is we already have pretty much the fastest one that can carry two stretchers out of the multitude of Alberta airstrips as short as 2900 feet. It is called the Beechcraft Super King Air 200.
Mack, why don’t we demand demand faster planes? That’s logical to you? That’s non sequitur.
That report on medevac (paid for handsomely city taxpayers) was laughable, as is evidenced by the dissenting letters from actual world-class emergency medicine practitioners that the report’s author was kind enough to include as attachments.
You did read those, right?
The reality is we have a great medevac set up now with the ECCA, and any other configuration won’t be as good. As all the experts have repeatedly reminded you, this will increase response times. As response times are increased, the chances of someone dying increase.
David
Brian: To be fair, if you break leg at Marmot you’re likely going to Edmonton in a private vehicle. I think even the nasty femur I treated last year was ground transported to Edmonton.
In fact the last time I heard of a ski hill injury at Marmot being transported by air was the season before last. In that case the patient was in an ambulance until Edson where air transport picked them up. There be others, I’m only volunteer patrol up there, but we do tend to hear about the interesting cases.
I think the problem may be that a medivac plane is not always on hand in Jasper if a ski injury needs transport they need it immediately.
For the topic at hand all I’m seeing are generalizations. Is there any research or background that says how many cases in the last year would have had poorer results in the absence of the ECCA? What changes could be made to make up for the absence of the ECCA? Finally, if the city was to maintain the airport primarily for medivac, is AHS willing to contribute directly to it?
A question to those asking about the moral and ethical obligations of keeping the Edmonton City Centre Airport open for medical transports: Are you protesting at the Indy this summer? The last few summers?
I mean, how could a race run for entertainment ever trump the importance of those runways?
Jeff,
Total and utter comment fail.
David
Well, if you don’t have one of those every now and again how does one keep sharp?
While it certainly was an outrageous question I think it puts in perspective the fact the medevacs are but one part of the ECCA. And, just like developing those lands, The Quarters, etc… requires stronger will from City Hall to slow suburb development, the medical questions may need to involve other levels of government. Health, after all, is a provincial jurisdiction.
This doesn’t all end tomorrow, this doesn’t all change overnight, there’s time to work out details. And if we can shut down a runway for the Indy, diverting air traffic for a few days, we can figure out how to divert traffic for the future, with the best possible outcomes.
If you have been to an Indy, you would notice the CF18s landing at the very operational ECCA. It’s spectacular.
True, but BOTH runways are not operational during the Indy. I think if runway 12-30 is being taken away for something like a race it shows that people can be comfortable with limited use of the ECCA for medical transportation.
It would also say to me that no medical transportation at ECCA, but with a good plan (again, drafted and implemented over years and years), would probably be acceptable too.
Now we are getting to ethical and moral arguments? Ethical and moral arguments are for medical issues such as euthanasia. Not determining if you need a place to land and transport passengers to the nearest ambulance and get them to the closest medical facility.
So why can’t there be an upgrade of medical facilities at Jasper? I understand there are seconds between life and death. Planes can’t land on hospital rooftops. The bigger question for all the medical staff is to ask the Province(as Jeff already stated) for more money to build more hospitals and hire more medical staff. We all know there is a shortage, especially in rural communities. I don’t think closing down an airport will hinder transporting patients. Having the ECCA there is only a band aid to the larger problem. So I think you should bark up another tree with that argument.
Furthermore, I posted this morning on twitter that the EnvisionYEG feed is flawed with responses like “they don’t actually count signatures” when they want to read 80,000 signatures. As one person stated on their feed, they lost all credibility with such posts.
There is a message lost in this and I will repeat it. It is the interest of rural Albertans who are trying to trump what cities are trying to accomplish. In reality going back to the argument, how many medical trips are there to ECCA on an annual basis as opposed to potential pasenger trips on transit when the NAIT extension is completed. How many new residents to the city will there be as a result of shutting ECCA down? In the end, how many more jobs will there be. Also I think the city looks to growth not death patterns.
Sorry guys, I think you’ve lost the argument there.
Andre: Upgrading all the facilities around Alberta to handle every medical case possible would like cost an order of magnitude more than just keeping the airport open. Further, I suspect a lot of the facilities only work well if they’re in constant use with experienced staff. For example having an advanced ICU that only gets used a few times a year isn’t going to work because the doctors and nurses on staff won’t have the skills.
The simple fact is that specialized care requires specialized facilities.
Paul.
I didn’t say every facility. It should be based on priority. But fact of the matter is, the Province needs to step up to the plate when it comes to health care which includes new hospitals in rural communities. As I said ECCA is a band aid to the real problem.
I SPENT 16 YEARS WITHE EDMONTON EMS……2AM ONE FRIDAY NITE I RUSHED TO THE MUNI.I MET A 4 ENGINE COMMERCIAL AIRLINER.THE CO-PILOT CAME TO THE DOOR AND GAVE ME A SMALL COOLER… HE SAID HE CAUGHT A GOOD TAIL WIND……..AFTER A 5 MINUTE TRIP TO THE U OF A….WE WERE MET BY A GOWNED AND GLOVED CREW AND PRESENTED THE TRANSPLANT HEART WHICH WAS RUSHED UP STAIRS TO THE OR….YOU PEOPLE DON’T HAVE A CLUE DO YOU.RIGHT MAC…..HOW MUCH ARE THEY PAYING YOU MAC…….PUT IT TO A PROPER VOTE RATHER THAN USE A VOTE FROM 10 YEARS AGO MAC GET A LIFE WOULD YA !
I get baffled by why so many people with little knowledge of the business city center airport brings in are so quick to support getting rid of it. Closing Edmonton’s airport would give Edmonton the dubious distinction of having the worst air access of any city in North America. The closure is supported by those without knowledge of air access or its value.
To try to make it simple, try using Google earth to measure the distance from any city (say population 1/2 million or more) downtown core to the closest airport to in North America. I haven’t found any city yet worse than Edmonton proposes to be. Perhaps if you search long enough you might find one. I would appreciate it if you could name that city so I could verify it.
While the expanse of airport land appears quite large from the observer on the ground ( I find it a breath of fresh to see the openness of it in the city) it is actually a very tiny percentage of the total land area in the city. This becomes very obvious why I struggle to pick out the airport visually when flying in at night.
I keep finding the assumption that other jobs like more retail stores and construction of housing are somehow more important than jobs servicing aircraft . Servicing aircraft jobs are important too. Aircraft are part of the transportation infrastructure that bring money in from outside. That extra money can than be circulated into the city economy resulting in more construction projects and shopping districts, but it is best to leave the airport land alone.
It is an entirely separate argument to keep the airport for medevacs. Last night five medevacs landed in close succession. I was involved in a true lifesaving one where every minute counted, however we in that business are not allowed to ever discuss any details so it is impossible for us to debate it. I might say though that if you were on the plane I was last night to witness what happens first hand you would consider insane to close the airport.
We keep hearing people talk about helicopter medevacs and I’m sure that makes the Stars helicopter people very happy but they only do something in the ballpark of 10 percent of air medevacs. When you talk about helicopters think about going half as fast with half the fuel range at many times the cost. They are not part of the picture as far as most air medevacs ( the longer ones) go. For those of us in the industry the erroneous public perception generated ( heavily supported by Stars huge PR fund raising department) is very frustrating. We just do our job. We have no PR department.
I hope this letter helps explain that there are multiple facets to support keeping the airport. Business, jobs saving lives, and pleasure for those that just like to watch the airplanes. The airport is not an unused piece of land.
ANDRE……..GET A LIFE…. YOU’RE ARGUMENTS HAVE NO BASIS……….NAIT SHOULD MOVE UP AND NOT OUT…THE LRT SHOULD GO UNDERGROUND……..AND AIR TRAFFIC SHOULD BE LEFT TO THRIVE…….THE COUNTY OF LEDUC IS THE ONLY WINNER HERE……..YOU BASE YOUR ARGUMENT ON 1995 . CONSULTANT REPORTS AND INFORMATION THAT WERE MADE FOR THE COUNCIL OF THE DAY.AND THE DEVELOPERS AT NISKU AND COUNTY OF LEDUC……EVERYTHING HAS GONE DOWN HILL EVER SINCE……JUST GO INTO THE PREHOSPITAL TRENCHES AND YOU WILL SEE THE VALUE OF THE MUNI AND THE PROXIMINITY TO THE CITIES MEDICAL FACILITIES……..IF IT WAS YOUR FAMILY MEMBER YOU WOULD BE THANKING GOD WE ARE SO LUCKY TO HAVE THE AIRPORT SO CLOSE….BUT YOU DON’T HAVE A CLUE……
It astonishes me that so many people will so vehemently support an endeavour without truly listening to and understanding the consequences of the action.
First, I have flown out more than one fractured femur from Hinton/Jasper airport over the years, as well as many other injuries equal or worse than that so trust me, it does happen a lot and that is from the fourth call aircraft for the area. The patient is sent by ground from Jasper to Hinton outskirts where the airport is, that may be your confusion. As a matter of legality and negligence, it is unlikely a medical professional would send a life threatening fracture like a femur 2.5 hrs down the road in a private vehicle. Can you say law suit?
To “upgrade” rural facilities as suggested would not be in the best patient interest, not to mention financially irresponsible. The more of a certain type of case a practitioner sees, the better they become, thus becoming specialists. Who would you like to treat you, someone who has seen a single similar case once in the past year or someone who has treated dozens? Due to population, rural centres and practitioners do not see the some things often enough to be as good as the specialists. That is the reason for the referral/transfer – volume.
Healthcare already consumes about 40% of the provincial budget. How much is enough to provide specialty services in close proximity to all Albertans? Every healthcare/medivac system in the world operates in a similar fashion, sending patients requiring specialized care to urban centres for treatment. Are they all wrong? Due to geography and centres of population we do not have the luxury of having a level one trauma centre within reach of a helicopter for a large percentage of Albertans. In the case of the ECCA, it is the KEY to rapid access for these patients. These patients that are in jeopardy if it closes are not waiting in the hall at the hospitals. There is a bed with surgeons and specialists waiting for THEM.
The ECCA is not a “bandaid” to underfunded healthcare. It is a part of a specialized system the province has spent a great deal of effort implementing and maintaining. The ECCA as an existing element was integrated into the system and helped make it incredibly efficient. Based on geography and population, you will not find a better system out there for treating patients requiring specialists.
Indy – One runway is maintained for aircraft during the entire event. The runway that is used for the race is closed just prior to the event and opened as soon as possible afterwards to allow for better, safer air traffic flow. Closing a runway for a few days and closing an airport permanently are two entirely different things.
Will the medivac system work without the ECCA? Yes, but it will come at a price. Longer flight times, increased transport times, increased inconvenience for patients and yes, an increase in mortality/morbidity rates. The increase in times equates to increase costs. More fuel, more aircraft, more crews, more ambulances (or helicopters?) all because the crews have to travel further in the air and on the ground. We all know what increased morbidity/mortality equates to.
As you may have noticed, I have spoken only of the medivac issue. I have read the posts and learned but this is what I KNOW. If YOU don’t know, I implore you to keep your mouth shut and take a minute to listen/read and learn. There is a moral and ethical issue here regarding the topic, the closure of the ECCA. Unless a realistic alternative can be figured out BEFORE it is closed, it will effect peoples lives. Thus far, all the politically offered solutions I have heard are unrealistic in more than one way.
There are many parts and more than one side to this debate. Be informed and don’t dismiss real issues this will create simply because you distrust the group “leading the charge”.
Get informed and let your voice be heard. It is in fact a democracy so why not vote?
“The problem with the medevac argument is that the airport is just a part of the overall system. There are also ambulances, emergency rooms, etc. As the report on medevac published last year noted, there are opportunities for significant improvement to the entire system.
Why are there only moral or ethical issues to consider when closing the airport? Why aren’t the people asking us to consider medevac also asking for faster aircraft? Reduced bottlenecks in other parts of the system? Surely our moral or ethical obligations don’t start and stop with the airport.” post #85
There are many parts to a car. If your’s does not start, you do not debate with the mechanic the virtues of winter vs all season tires. You discuss the issue at hand and deal with the rest at an appropriate time.
You are correct when stating there is room for improvement elsewhere, but why break the part that gives us the greatest benefit?
Faster aircraft – = longer runways which don’t exist in many area’s thus causing longer transport times for the crew to get to the patient and then back to the airport, thus more than using up the time gained by flying faster. The King Air 200 has good short field characteristics balanced with payload requirements, patient(s) and crew. Since I have been doing this we have moved from the King Air 90, to the 100 and then to the 200, about 10 yrs ago. It is a good combination of cost and ability for the requirements of this Provincial service area.
The less critical the patient, the more potential bottle necks there are in the system. The less acute patient will simply be inconvenienced by the closure. The concern is for the critically acute patient. In that case the aircraft is sent as priority as soon as requested, the ground transfer portion is done with lights and sirens and there is a bed with specialists waiting when we arrive. The airport is the ONLY link in the chain this discussion is about. The system is continually improving as new idea’s and techniques are implemented. The system is not perfect but why break the parts that do work well?
LOCATION..LOCATION……..LOCATION…….IT IS WITHIN 15 MINUTES OF THE MISC HYPERBARIC CHAMBER [SERVES THE NORTHEN 1/2 OF AB AND BC ] WITHIN 5 MINUTES OF U OF A BURN AND TRAUMA CARE…..WITHIN 2 MINUTES OF RAH [TRAUMA ORTHO CARE ] WITHIN 15 MINUTES OF THE GREY NUNS FOR GERACTRIC AND ORTHR CARE……….I WORKED 16 YEARS WITH EDMONTON EMS…..BEEN THERE AND DONE IT ALL IN REGARDS TO CRITICAL CARE TRANSFERS MOST WITHOUT BUT SOME WITH A POLICE ESCORT.FORM A TO B ASAP……WITHOUT THE MUNI MANEY MANEY MANEY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE MET CERTAIN FATE……SO I EMPLORE YOU TO KEEP QUITE IF YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT……I DO KNOW A LOT MORE THAN YOU SIR………16 YEARS WORTH 24/7-365DAYS A YEAR PERHAPS EACH EMS MEMBER DOING 6 TO 700 CALLS PER YEAR TOTAL…….SO SIR I EMPLORE YOU TO KEEP QUIET UNLESS YOU PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT THEN WE CAN HAVE A LIVELY DEBATE SIR
I EBLIEVE THIS IS ANOTHER BLUNDER FOR THIS CITY COUNCIL….TO NAME A FEWW…..REBRANDING K-DAYS….NOW JUST A DRUG FUELLED DRUNK FOR 20 SOMETHINGS……..THE IVORY TOWER AT NORTHLANDS YET THE COLISIUM FALLS INTO DAIREPAIR……..PAVING OF CHURCHILL SQUARE…….THEY ASK US TO WATER CITY TREES ..YET I FOLLOWED A WATER TRUCK DUMPING THOUSANDS OF GALLONS OF WATER ON KINGSWAY AVE FROM 111AVE ALL THE WAY TO 123 ST EVEN WITH ALL THE RAIN WE HAVE HAD…… MAYBE THE BIGGER PICTURE IS THE IDIOTS AT CITY HALL MAKING ALL THE CALLS……ALL THE EMPTY SCHOOLS COULD BE USED FOR THE HOMLESS AND THE EMERGENCY YOUTH SHELTER….INSTEAD OF WHYTE AVE PARTY CENTERAL THAT THEY CAN’T AFFORED ANT WAYS…….THE LEGION SHOULD HAVE HAD THAT BUILDING…..COUNCIL IS NOT LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE…..MAYBE WE NEED TO RUN THEM OUT LIKE WE DID WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD DRUG HOUSES…….THEY ARE WELL ON THEIR WAY TO RUINING EDMONTON…..MY CITY BORN AND RAISED ….WHERE ALL MY FAMILY IS LAID TO REST……..YET I HAVE LEARNED TO HATE THIS TOWN, I LOOK AROUND AND SEE NOTHING BUT DISTRUCTION AND CRACKHEADS…….. THERE IS HOPE AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL THOUGH WE HAVE TO KEEP BEING VERY VOCAL ABOUT BLACHFORD FIELD…..HAVE IT ALL DECLAIRED A HISTORICAL SITE BY THE PROVINCE..THEN THE CITY WILL HAVE NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT IT AND THEY CAN’T TOUCH IT AND CAN KEEP ALL THE REVENUES FROM THE INDY RACE TO OFFSET ANY COSTS.THINK OUT SIDE THE BOX…….ANDRE YOU NEED TO BE MORE RESPECTFUL WITH YOUR NEW HOME
Brian: My wording was unclear. We always send femurs and anything potentially life threatening by ambulance from the hill, however the majority of broken bones (arms, lower legs) and joint injuries head for the hospital in the vehicle the came to the hill in.
Malcom: Your posts are unreadable in their current form. Turn off caps locks please.
Ok. Let me ask. In a year, how many patients, let alone CRITICAL patients are transported from remote communities to Edmonton hospitals. To me it isn’t all that many and even if ECCA is closed.
The way I see it, I don’t ski. I don’t live nor will ever live in a remote community. So I don’t see the point in all of this. I am tired of bowing down to rural interests when cities are the economic engines of society. Edmonton is not a cowboy town anymore. The city is growing and needs to grow inward and that means closing ECCA.
Who ever posted placing the LRT underground, have you heard of costs? Boring an underground tunnel is only necessary when there is limited capacity on the roads to build at grade and there are safety concerns at street level. In this case of compromising ECCA for a tunnel, it is not necessary to do that.
Malcolm, you posts with caps, spelling mistakes and accusations have made me lose all credibility. By the way, being respectful of my new home means with responses like yours it is clear that there needs to be change. Old school thoughts such as yours makes that quite evident.
To those asking for a vote, the issue has been closed and we need to move on to more pressing urban economic and social issues within the city to deal with like housing, transportation, etc in order for viability within the city.
andre, you still don’t get it do you sir. change is good however this council seems to be making some very stupid moves. I am born and raised in Edmonton and am very pasionate about the muni.Since 1995 this city has been in a downward spiral…..yes we have grown ….however in the process the powers to be have sucessfully alienated 3 generations of edmontions along the way……..you find it annoying the buzzing of the planes overhead….maybe just maybe….its that cheap pot you are smoking andre
In my personal life and my career I’ve advanced a lot of ideas and opinions that I hold dear — some of them controversial.
I have never been reluctant to hold a public vote on any of them.
David
i worked for ems in edmonton…….recieved a call…2am on a friday nite…….was met by a 4 engine commercial airliner…….who’s co-pilot smiled and said ‘i caught a good tail wind ‘…..he passed me a small cooler…..after a 5 minute drive to the UofA hospital….i was met by a team with gowns and masks ……who took the transplant heart and sped up to the waiting OR and their parient……..we are so damn lucky to have the muni…………the northwest leg of the lrt is not necessary now…….they have closed schools in the northwest…..wellington junior high is a good example……..nait has said they are not going to use the land in the immediate future…so both those arguements are baseless..even in it’s current state the muni should qualify for historical status…then no one could touch it…..thanks andre..i am old school..VERY OLD SCHOOL……RESPECT YOUR ELDER the muni has been part of edmonton since the beginning, it has found a purpose and a good one, one that contributes to the citizens of edmonton…..saw our mayor boarding a plane for fort mac one day, sure was nice having it that day steven….this council has made maney blunders ..rebranding k-days….which is a drug fuelled drunk for 20 somehtings now…..vandilism goes way up , noise till all hours, the stupid traffic…….they ask us to water a city tree in front of our homes….yet i followed a water truck spraying thousands of gallons of water on the roads from 111 ave to 124st all along kingsway ave…….council has sucessfully alienated 3 generations of edmontonions…….i think there is a much bigger problem in this city….i could go on and on about poor decisions by several city councils , from jan to salesman bill, and now this bunch
Edmonton is in a very unique position…..one only has to go into the prehosital care trenches to understand………10 minutes from the misc, with tis hyperbaric chamber.serving all northernAB and BC……..RAH..trauma and thw womens hospital for neonatal criticalcare……Uof A….trauma….burns…high risk deliveries ..orthopedics…….GNH…geratric care …all within 15 minutes of the muni with lights and sirens…….some people just do not get it [andre]………
Wow. The Malcolm vs Andre contest. Only problem is – I’LL PREVAIL!!!
Malcolm, please stick to the topic instead of voicing your displeasure for council decisions. If you have a problem with the actions of council, either vote them out or move to some remote community like Westlock. They’ll be happy to take you there.
andre…cheeky cheeky cheeky mister.this isn’t a peeing match…..16 years in prehospital care…..the majority of critical care comes to the city via fixed wing aircraft, and travels to area hospitals via ambulance….stars flys only within 160 miles…….so andre the next time you are driving home to hobemma and driving stupid you will most likely end up at the muni either on a stetcher or in a bag……..you just don’t get it. admit it would ya…….with all the buzzing around the low rentals there andre it is hard to think uh! concentrate now MUNI AIRPORT RIGHT….. andre why don’t you ask for ride along with an ambulance for a shift then come back and we’ll pee if you want….you just don’t get it buddy….best to watch what you say till you walk a mile in a critical patients shoes…..people will die as a result of the closing of the muni . GET THAT ANDRE……..DON’t FORGET THAT……walk a mile in the patients shoes before you spout off…….educate yourself then you can bitch like the rest of us…….best still go home to toronto or what ever city you came from you are in the wild west now……my family fought in both wars so you have the right to blog … you have no respect for your elders boy…….lets see you’re from BC right no let me quess toronto ……did you protet at toronto….did you get a police boot up your ass……….it does NOT MATTER WHAT YOU SAY PATIENT CARE IS THE ONLY ISSUE CONCERNING THE CLOSING OF THE MUNI…………think before you speak andre
This thread has become connect2edmonton!
sorry dave i am very passionate on this issue and it makes me sick that we are even discussing this issue……the general public dos not have a clue what it means to patient care to close this perfectly good airport…perhaps the stelmach government would buy it ……..don’t forget they have an air wing that needs a home too…..that would solve a lot of things wouldn’t it!
so folks here’s how it works now……trauma patient at vegerville needs rapid transport……stars is on another call so the closest fixed wing king air medivac is dispatched to fetch the patient…….they land at the muni and are then transported by the flight team to the prearrsnged hospital via ground ambulance, in about 10 minutes or so…….the golden hour [ the first 60 minutes from the time of injury to definitive care , operating room, is critical] mortality and morbidity jumps by leaps and bounds for every minute over that 60 minutes. so, by the time a critically ill patient arrives in edmonton that first 60 minutes is long gone or will very soon. so every SECOND counts, so to come down hwy 2 then the anthney hendey.add 45 minutes to 65 minutes to the trip……stars can do that flight in about 10 minutes return…airport to hospital…you are going to tie them up or get another chopper i say not…….this is the reality of the current system.its first class let me tell you ……stars saved my life in 2005…..all you have to do is walk a mile in a critically injured patients shoes to understand how stupid this debate really is…..’city of edmonton ‘what goes around comes around
everybody knows that mayor steve is a land developer…..thats his business……….so we all know his mind is made up allready..he needs the wrath of a good election to send him on his way…..now we all know how he thinks…like a land developer!……..the transportation boss is out to lunch and has his hand way way up there..he is just as bad as jan or smilin salesman bill…….what do you do when the monkies are loose.round’em up and put’em in a cage
Paul – I appreciate your open mindedness.
All the injuries sent from the hill by ambulance or private vehicle are typically taken into the Jasper hospital. IF they require further care not available there they are sent by ambulance to where they can receive it, usually Edmonton. If they have sustained critical injuries then air transport is the PREFERRED method due to the shorter “out of hospital” period. I understand you may not see ambulance’s on the hill very often, but many of those injured there will get a ride in one during the course of their treatment.
Andre – the majority of the 10000 transports I spoke of earlier are patients from rural settings and all of those transported by fixed wing are from outside the city. If you are close in to the city then the most efficient, cost effective transport is by ground. Helicopter transport plays a very small role within the city itself but that increases a great deal as the distance to the receiving hospital increases. As the distance increases helicopters become a less efficient mode and fixed wing takes over the role of transport for those not able to be transported by ground for whatever reason. Critical patients that will be negatively effected by this proposed closure make up a small percentage of those 10000. Lets say for argument sake it is 5%. That’s 500 people who’s lives we are talking about. That is not insignificant.
I know that not everyone wants to, or ever will live outside a large centre. But do you not care about those who do? The farmer, the oil rig worker, the people at Gennesse Power plant for example. These people all live/work outside the city and many have families out there as well. These are the people that provide you with your food, gas and power. Do they not deserve a voice and some consideration? Their existence allows for your existence in the place you want to be. Open your eyes. Realize that a city cannot prosper and thrive in a vacuum. The city depends on the rural just as rural depends on the city, it’s symbiotic really. This “economic engine” as you call it would not run without vast resources and services not available inside it’s boarders.
Do you ever travel? Ever go to a lake or visit the mountains or a provincial park? If you ever leave this vast, glorious metropolis, then you are one of the millions of people we are waiting to assist if the need arises. We need the ECCA to provide the best access to some of the best medical facilities in Canada in a timely manner. It is not about bowing down to rural interests, it is about bowing down to Human interests.
Brian
You have summarized the medevacs in a very accurate way. I would hope that kind of clarity can come out in the open. The city rural relationship you describe is bang on as well. Thank-you
I am a full time fixed wing Flight Paramedic that has flown in approximately 3500 patients to the Muni personally over the last 17 years. Edmonton is only the Economic engine that it is, because of Fort McMurray and all the hard working Albertans that live there. We fly them to the City after they: have heart attacks, head injuries, trauma accidents etc working in subpar conditions. Andre, giving those people awesome access to the U of A Hospital etc. is the least we can do.
I think Scott McKeen from today’s Edmonton Journal sums it up:
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/City+Centre+Airport+issue+dead+move/3244940/story.html
So to that, I prove my point. Time to close the books and have a good day.
Close it.
andre…there you go opening your yap again…….if you dont like the wild west take your yuppy ass and go home……you dont have a clue you do you ……….must be all that buzzing in your head from that cheap pot you are smoking………get a job or are you sponging from some girl………..you bet your sniviling little ass people will die as a result of this move……..but i dont care cause i have all the pot i need right here in the city…….like i said before when you drive to mom and you’re stupid [da] youll end up at the muni on a stretcher or in a bag……… stupid is stupid is stupid……wont your mommy and daddy be proud of you………
andre, you know there is medication out there for that buzzing between your ears buddy………did you book your ride along on an ambulance yet buddy…..probably not ………one has to expect that people who have not had to experience critical life and death situations not to understand…andre ..most of the people on this blog are professionals who deal with these situations every day and for professional reasons can not speak as loudly as i.i am retired so i can defend the patient care issues around the closing of this airport….yes you may not like me but so what…..PATIENT CARE IS THE ONLY ISSUE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ………this is a very important issue for prehospital care andre……you are obviously of the gimme , gimme ,gimme generation andre….where is your respect for life andre……until you are forced to deal with life and death you will never get it buddy………..just ask your parents…..you speak of credibility…… even with all the professionls speaking out against this closure you still are making bad choices andre……..
why aren’t you people emailing kim krushell and steven mandel…..let city council know the truth from the professionals…….come on gents lets get going……………..
A lot of people will be making a lot of money with this land but will the City see any of it? What will be the cost of cleaning up a hundred years of avaition fuel spills that have taken place, hello taxpayer. If this was an easy and cheap task to perform we would not have empty lots that used to hold gas stations scattered about the city.
Unfortunatly “edmonton born and raised”, they are not interested in hearing from us. City hall has heard during their deliberations. MLA’s have heard but this is not their decision. City hall does not want any more information than they have already. They have a review done by Alberta Health regarding this with all the facts and figures. They know the implications and costs regarding the medivac system. It has not swayed them. A vote by the electorate is the only thing left. What do Edmontonians want, not just council?
I have said my piece and some have listened, possibly learned. But those people were open to another view. The ball is in your court citizens of Edmonton. Demand to be heard and demand a vote. We can all live with the publics choice, whichever way it goes. At least it will be democratic.
Council voted. They are representative of the city. You can choose to vote then out but there are much more pressing issues than this. The airport serves no purpose anymore except for the small minority of medevac and the private jets. I`ve made my point clear. Council has made themselves clear. Envision Edmonton are not representative of me nor the majority of Edmontonians. You are not going to get a plebescite because you won`t reach 80k signatures. he leader of this group is wasting people`s times and energy and will fall on deaf ears.
When you have whackjobs posting on here like Malcolm Bissett/Edmonton Born and Raised, or when someone posts on twitter that my name will be part of the petition via twitter, it’s quite obvious this group will do anything do waste people’s times. I refuse to stoop to the level of the minority. I just don`t see why you people can`t just give it up. Keeping it open is a waste of taxpayer money where it could utilized more wisely.
there you go opening your yap again andre….this council only represents a small group of little turds who live and shoot at each other in the downtown core…….so which bar to you party at andre ……aren’t your mommy and daddy so proud of you…..you dont have a clue goof………even when the transplant head over at the mazinkowski heart centre speaks out you still have these immature thoughts……give up the drugs buddy…….you can hate my guts or call me names and that’s ok i don’t care…….. what you need is a proud edmonton boot up your ass to rattle that little brown brain of your’s..it is quite obvious you are here to take advantage of edmonton and the hard working people that live here……you screwed your own credibility andre darmanin when you got on this blog .oh poeple are talking about me on twitter oh…….twitter this goof…….PATIENT CARE IS THE ISSUE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT STONER ANDRE DARMININ…………..
Three cheers for Mayor Mandel.The only man with great vision for Edmonton is Mr.Mandel.He has my vote again.
to andre and the zit……the mayors vision of the young urbanite sitting on the sidewalk cafe drinking latte and texting is out to lunch…..in reality you have an inner city full of drunk homless people who CHOOSE that life style and a bunch of 25 somethings SHOOTING AND STABBING EACH OTHER……..REALITY……..the bigger picture is the councils vision of the downtown core.krushells riding is getting an LRT extention even with empty schools there….. the head of nait has told the city that they are not going to use the land……[the province gave them a piece just south of nait] it was the students union who jumped into bed with krushell on this one……she needs a proud edmonton made boot up her ass……..next election i will be at the public forums …..what about the legion , and the party cantral drop-in centre for the youth emergency shelter.then we have to bail them out with more ……if you are not a young yuppy urbanite living in the down town core you are nothing……..it is 10 years of poor decisions by city council…..jan ,smilin salesman bill and now these idiots……..its the rebranding of k-days…….the muni……lot of empty buildings in the downtown core…….lots of empty lots for yuppy urbanitte development for steve to play with ……LEAVE THE MUNI ALONE…..MANDEL HAS TO GO ………..
it is the douchbags at city hall especially mandel and krushell.who gets an LRT extention to HER RIDING…at the expense of albertains …SHE NEEDS TO GO……the little sniviling yuppy urbanittes that council is catering to are so high on themselves or ‘E’….there is the whyte ave legion issue….rebranding of K-days…..the indy race …the city screws up everything they touch……we NEED a COMPLETE OVERHAUL AT THE HALL……hey a new campaign “OVERHAUL THE HALL”
“OVERHAUL THE HALL”…..we”ll get over it steve…..your as bad as pierre shooting everybody the finger steve……right back at ya……. see ya in the fall at the public forums steve…..”you”ll get over it “
Here is an idea for your next article. Try to find out what kind of relationship Mayor Mandel has to the proposed developers.
kim kershell blames tony katerina for putting it back on the table…he wanted 737’s landing there again ………..ed gibbons also said that….yet tony at the last minute changed his vote………but mandal has given us all the salute……..i say “OVERHAUL THE HALL”………kim told me an IT company threatened to pull out of edmonton if things didn’t change……….she also blamed bruce tom for making a nastey lease with the EIA…..who is really controlling things……any competition to the international airport constitutes a breach and the city is on the hook for all liabilities until 2052..the royal bank insisted on it when they loaned the airport authority a billion in 97 or so……so let the royal bank hear the people…where is that turd bruce tom ………
Thanks for putting this issue on a forum. I work at the airport and my life and family would be greatly affected should it close. Unlike an office/ sales worker, I can’t just find a new job easily and will have to uproot my family to a new city (there is no new infrastructure at EIA for a move). This individual problem can be multiplied by the amount of pilots and AME’s at ECCA.
The other thing I will like to know is why no one is discussing how a lease that was signed after the last plebiscite between the operators, EAA and the city of Edmonton until 2056 can be unilaterally broken without any discussion with the signitaries.
The rest are valid opinions on both sides, but the above was supposed to be a legal document (like any other lease of property). Thanks again.
Jason
I feel for you Jason. City Hall is not interested in the little details like your job, patient care or contracts. It’s all about “progress” and making money.
Sorry, had another comment. Although the media has painted the airport as pretty much an area of land that simply caters to the rich and their private “i won the lotto” toys, its not that at all. The people I fly on a very regular basis are nurses and doctors to the northern reserves, engineers to the oilsands, government officials, drillers/ riggers, etc. The other operators have about the same types of passengers. As any other airport (international as well- Apron 2), there are yuppies and their planes that show up. Normally those planes belong to the oil office execs that come here to do business with their offices downtown or with the government at the legislature. Thanks again.
So this morning while I was watching TFC, some older woman knocks on my door to say she has a petition to keep the Airport from closing. I told her I was against it. Then I posted a tweet on it then get a message from David Maclean mentioning only half are against it. First the building is small. Second, she could be exaggerating where it could be more or less. She was an older woman, and probably lacks education (wow, sounds like “Edmonton Born and Raised).
Then you read a comment from Jason:
“I work at the airport and my life and family would be greatly affected should it close. Unlike an office/ sales worker, I can’t just find a new job easily and will have to uproot my family to a new city (there is no new infrastructure at EIA for a move). ”
You feel sorry for someone like him but at the same time, whatever job he does, I’m sure it’s one of those careers that has passed him by.
All in all it is quite evident that more and more by the comments and commenters that there seems to be a battle between the direction Edmonton wants to go and the ones who hold on to the past. As much as I totally disrespect the comments from edmonton born and proud, it goes to show how much he is willing to hold on to his past. That’s fine but in order for Edmonton to prosper, the city must grow up from it’s “dirty” present and move to a clean future. That means finding a way to push out the natives from our communities and reducing crime, eliminating a lot of the industrial jobs that exist and bring in more investment to compete with Calgary and other major cities across Canada. It’s time to turn the corner and if it means leaving people behind because of their refusal to change, then so be it. David Maclean, Edmonton born and proud, Jason, etc… Get with the times people! So it’s either you’re with us or you’ll be left out to dry.
Andre : Did it ever occur to you that you are trying to terminate many peoples jobs(just not your job) plus an entire industry that you are obviously not educated about. Transportation infrastructure is needed to maintain a mutually beneficial relationship between Edmonton and the northern communities, which pump much money into Edmonton. If you want to see development why not tackle the Charles Camsell Hospital lands 1 km from the airport. They haven’t been used in 14 years. You should go look for yourself, rather than try to get rid of someone else job.
To close the City Center Airport is to give Edmonton the worst air accessibility of cities in North America. In studying major cities in Canada and northwestern US, I was not able to find one that came even close to distancing itself from all aircraft access as Edmonton would be without the city center airport.
Right now Edmonton is tied with Regina with an airport only 3.5 km from the downtown core. Only Vancouver and Victoria beat it with regular scheduled floatplane service aerodromes within 1 km of the downtown core. Toronto has its Island airport 3 km from the middle of downtown.
I sampled 14 cities in Canada and Northwestern US. General aviation airports or aerodromes averaged 5.7 km from city cores. At 26 km to the closest airport without the City Center Airport, Edmonton will not only be last, but a distant last.
It is fortunate that Envision Edmonton is trying to show the reality of the issue. We have seen so much pretending. Some pretend that it is used only for private planes. Some pretend that there are not really critical medevacs in which time is a factor. Some pretend that the airport is costing money rather than bringing money in. Do they understand a billion dollars is quietly being spent on the International Airport? That is Billion with a B, a thousand million.
If you think that Edmonton would somehow change dramatically by using the airport infrastructure for something else indicates your lack of perspective. The airport land looks really big when you are standing on the ground. For a pilot flying in at night it is a tiny insignificant hard to see patch of land in a sea of city lights. It occupies a very small percentage of land but provides transportation and diversity to the economy. There is a bigger picture out there, but do you want to see it?
andre .the twitts and twats..are speaking again………like most of you twitts you need an edmonton made boot up your ass andre…… its a waste of time even talking to ya…..the next time you are smoking crack or doin “E”…..hope that buzzing between your ears gets real loud…….hope a big turd falls from one of those planes flyin over…… you are a goofy little yuppy urbanitte……your mommy and daddy must be so proud of their twitting little kid….you dont have a clue about patient care ……..if the wild west is to rough for ya go back to BC..go to school somewhere else….we dont need you here.take your twitting little turd friends with ya buddy………..
hey andre .the chief here wants your address so he can come over and have a pow wow………your are a racist little turd ……come on admit it now aren’t ya just admit it ..drive out the indians and reduce crime……..ha ha ha ha….OH….ha ha ha ..give me a break buddy …..what grade are you in anyways………….just makes me sick that my family fought in both wars so little goofs like you have the right to live….now go to your room and play with yourself……….
andre darminin says ” we need to drive out the indians to reduce crime “…everybody send him a tweet would ya…………….
hey guys andre darminin is a blogger who works for the city of edmonton as a transit planner….according to his facebock site…. i’m going to complain to edmonton transit to a manager i know over there….told you he is smoking crack……….he is from the year of the rat…….wanting to drive out the indians to reduce crime……..what about the east indians and their taxi businesses at the airport andre…
he also says edmonton is his second home……….i think he is supporting the local east indian taxi businesses based out of the county of leduc…………….a hired blogger ……or better still a hired bugger……..
hey andre …your looking a little suntaned to be talking about your indian brothers………
Yeah! Fuck anyone who needs urgent medical attention! It’s their own fault/fate they chose not to live closer to the city. Close the CC airport, find a developer to dig up the buried planes and clean up the petroleum in the ground (like they did on whyte aves old gas station block…oh wait… No one wants to pay for that).
Fuck saving lives, we need that land! Go #yegcc! Go Edmonton! Long live Mack Male!
you see people, what we are dealing with…..more cheeky little pot smoking turds , high on ‘E’ and carring a gun looking for somebody to shoot or beat up.phil is another example of what my family fought in th wars for…..phil.there is medication for your” ADD”……….”ADHD”……probably looking for a boot up his ass…..gun fights are not like the trailer park boys you idiot ,it is a give and a take situation phil…..and sometimes just sometimes the other guy gets the drop on you and you get one in the ear……..i promise , phil it doesnt hurt a bit….you see the type of people andre darminin is involved with…..and he still gets to do ‘kim’..wow how do you do it andre….this goof phil blogs and tweets on andre’s site and on connect2edmonton …mac remove the message because of the f word…now go in your room and play with yourself phil……be a good little boy and take you pills now……
phil …..look at you buddy all wired up at midnite and looking to swear at somebody….your mommy and daddy must be so proud ..hey whats your last name buddy….so the chief here can come to your house and have a pow-wow……being a friend.i mean lover for andre.do you hate indians too……..you need a boot up your ass to tickle that little brown brain of yours …….better still some needs to stick that blackberry…….so it tickles your brown brain………hey speaking of brown are you andre darminin’s soul mate…….how maney taxi’s do you own buddy…….hey seems to me kim kershell’s sexertary’s name is phil…..and i supose you are doing her too……..
Mark,
I don’t think you’ll understand the notion of a city that needs to grow up. Yes it was a mistake to have EIA built where it was. Yes it is a mistake to have development patterns as such. This is one of the worst designed cities I have ever been in. So because there have been mistakes made in the past, tough choices are going to have to be made. In reality this really isn’t a tough choice. We are talking about air accessibility. Why not talk about customer accessibility? Downtown to the airport costs $50 by cab. Why not talk about talk about a high speed rail link from downtown via the airport to Calgary.
You talk about transportation infrastructure but you’re not looking at the province to solve the problem of serving rural communities. Why do Edmonton taxpayers have to foot the bill for other parts of the province? Why can’t medical facilities be built elsewhere in the province? I don’t think you see the point in all this. You can come to me about the worst air accessibility and the costs to expand EIA. EIA needs serious revamping to say the least.
Continuing to have EIA open for private jets and medevac does not give me legitimate reasons as to why the ECCA should remain open. Someone earlier had said 5% of patients fly through there and called that significant. NO IT ISN’T!!!! I would rather have my taxpayer dollars go back into the city for future sustainable development and building more transit throughout the city, instead of supporting dead end jobs.
Edmonton is not a large enough city to attract something large like Bombardier. Toronto’s Downsview Airport remains open because of Bombardier and the investment it makes into the city and the province when it comes to Dash 8 planes. The military base closed up shop and moved out. Then it beautified the area. So that my friends is a good enough reason to keep an airport open.
Also you talk about the Island Airport. It serves as landing point for Porter Airlines as well as small planes. But there are other airport in the surrounding GTHA that small planes can land such as Buttonville. Those were established long ago. But no industry is attached to the Island or Buttonville except for those ferry operators and air control operators.
The vote was clearly in favour of closing the airport. I don’t know how much I have to reiterate it. People please MOVE ON!
I mean keeping ECCA open. My bad.
It’s hard to move on if your only skill is in aviation. I bought a house and settled my family right beside the airport strictly because the airport was there. There I was able to put my severely disabled son(a young adult) in a group home nearby because he required 24 hour care, yet I wanted to be able to take him home on a regular basis. The city airport provided access for me to both go to work and see him regularly. His presence there provided three more full time jobs, hence more money coming into the city due to the airports location. That is just my story. There are many others that work out of the airport and they have there own reasons which would be different.
You believe for the city to grow up we all must leave town. It’s just not that simple. I believe my job in air ambulance is a legitimate contribution to the city. I also believe the other aviation sectors are legitimate contributions.
Obviously you will never agree with us but moving on or moving out is not a viable option right now so we will stay and continue trying to point out the legitimacy of our contribution.
Andre
Regarding the 500 pt’s, I said of the 10,000 medivacs last year perhaps 5% or 500 would be negatively impacted due to travel time if the airport is closed – that is mortality as well as quality of life, the rest would simply be inconvenienced.
I will also re-iterate, moving services outside the city is not feasible. It is not a question of infrastructure, but one of population density. Without a minimum number of people receiving similar interventions the quality of care suffers.
Given your apparent attitude and concerns, we should all live in the city or expect to be treated as second class citizens. Neither the city nor rural Alberta can survive without the other. How much would your taxes go up if no one was out there producing oil and generating vast amounts of revenue for the province?
All we are asking for is Edmonton to realize the ECCA is one of the things beneficial to rural Albertans, one of the pieces that help us contribute to Edmonton’s existence. We are SYMBIOTIC. You do not live in a vacuum.
Mark,
Adjustment is the key. It’s almost like you’re not willing to change your life. If I was in your predicament, I would do my best to make my life better for me and my family. Go back to school or learn another trade. There are always other options.
Brian,
Attitude? No my friend. Look at the earlier posts before it took a turn for the worst by a few lame posters. Realize that the majority are in favour of closing the airport. I have been here 2 months and have followed what’s been going on. As I reiterate, why should the interests of rural Alberta be put upon urbanites. You choose to live where you do because you wanted a house and a front yard and 2.2 cars, etc. So you move away from the city and now you expect me or others to care about the choices you and others make. I’m sorry. There is equal opportunity for all. I do not live in a vacuum. I face reality. I will live in area where there are decent facilities. People choose that lifestyle. I do not aspire to be those people.
On the 10th anniversary of the tornado that struck Pine Lake Camp Ground please remember those who lost their lives and their loved ones. Remember also the severely injured children and adults who were airlifted to the City Centre Airport in need of urgent medical (critical care) assistance by teams of skilled physicians and trained staff. When a natural disaster strikes and time is of the essence the ECCA can be literally a life saver due to the close proximity to 2 hospitals with exceptional, specialized medical staff. A friends daughter got to the ECCA another time with possibly 15 minutes to live and she was saved at the Royal Alexander Hospital. We drove to the EIA on June 8th at 3 a.m. to take a relative for an early flight and it was raining heavily and there was construction on the Quesnel Bridge and the 23rd Avenue overpass. There was very little traffic but due to water pooling in the potholes on city roads and white lines being submerged it took almost an hour to reach the EIA. An ambulance would have taken just as long as water covered potholes jarred our vehicle from side to side and we had to drive slowly to be safe as we were in danger of hydroplaning.
This has become a pity contest.
andre….you know you are a snotty little puke ….why don’t you move to millwoods with the rest of your family and friends……..then if you quit smoking pot and playing with yourself that buzzing from those little planes wouldn’t bother you so much…………the problem is we let you reproduce……….bet you your kids like indians …not east ,but west……you need a proud edmonton born and raised boot up you ass to tickle that little brown brain of yours…..but wait it would probably all leak out then……..just think you could get a job driving for your dads taxi company at the international airport.just think 50.00 a pop
“OVERHAUL THE HALL”
all of the provincal members of government i have talked to have said this is a stupid move on the cities part but it is not their decision and all they can do is put plans in place which will cost the tax payers more money….including andre the turd……..all we can do is overhaul the hall.next election …how about some blogger investigate mandels land development record to see if he or any of his family or friends have profited from the decisions he has made……….and somebody find out who’s doin kim kershell…..andre,how bout it ..come on now we all know you’re doin her…….or maybe steven……..
so you see what andre’s generation does to the seniors .92 year old….61 year old in toronto today………these are the people we fought and died for ….they don’t give a shit about anything except playin with themselves and their bmw’s….so you have only been in this country for 2 months eh andre………these little shitheads need a proud canadian boot up their asses…….go back to toronto andre we don’t need anymore unemployed bums in alberta..i have forwarded your comments about driving out the indians to reduce crime to the reserve….how do you think abbotsford feels about your kind squatting in their city……..and blowing up airindia flights……….somebody give this idiot a virus.would you………
talk about pity andre …….your country sure gets a big chunk of loot from this country.so don’t talk about pity………only pity is you have access to the internet…….oh i passed your picture from your website to the reserve west of town …..good luck partying down town any more………drive out the indians to reduce crime .thats a good one .just shows how high you are andre……..i hope you and steven use a glove buddy..wouldn’t be good if you got the hiv.now …then you might be in the hands of the people your mouth has been slamming…….yet again alberta health care wouldn’t cover you only being here 2 months
andre the way to toronto is right up 118 ave and keep on going…….nobody likes you here…….i sent the mohawks your picture so when yo go home you can try and run them out of toronto……….this is the wild west here …we all voted tory here …not the greenparty…….welcome to alberta andre..now beat it !
I wanted to support the airport, but not through inappropriate racial insults. I don’t see a way of using this blog the way it is.
Mack you are a total moron. It’s obvious you support closure and decommissioning of transportation infrastructure in a growing province?? Why?! Just because you have no stake in aviation doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter here. The medevac service alone is invaluable to a standard of health services and people in the province. STFU till you know what you’re talking about.
Mac I can’t beleive you still don’t get it. This is so much bigger than medevac. With an airport in the city centre we have the ability to create a state-of-the art aviation industry that provided VERY high paying jobs.
Mac I can’t beleive you still don’t get it. This is so much bigger than medevac. With an airport in the city centre we have the ability to create a state-of-the art aviation industry that provides VERY high paying jobs.
I’ve said before, Medivac is an interesting wrinkle to the argument, but is nowhere close to the #1 reason to keep the City Centre Airport open.
If you’re one of these weirdos obsessing over carbon use, then Blatchford Field would be your biggest reason to keep it open. For the rest of us, the idea of having a fully functioning airport in the heart of the city for short runs as a compliment to the International Airport that Edmonton Airports constantly is reminding us is too small, needs yet another expensive round of renovations, and doesn’t have nearly enough parking.
time to show city hall the rath of edmontonians…..the elections coming ‘OVERHAUL THE HALL”
Cab from downtown Calgary to airport:
$50 and 35 minutes
check-in and going through security:
60 minutes
flight to Edmonton:
35 minutes and $150 each way
wait for luggage after flight has landed:
25 minutes
cab to Yeg airport to home:
$55 and 40 minutes (on a good day…)
Total cost $255 and 3H 15 Minutes.
Letting folks from Fly EIA know that I drove and saved 200 bux, 20 minutes time and all the hassle instead: Priceless!
I don’t understand why they cant just kill two birds with one stone and mow down the slums around 95st and 103ave. 90% of the businesses there are abandoned anyways, maybe a new arena would be just the spark that area needs to make it a respectable part of edmontons downtown. It really is a primetime location minus all the stoned and crazy derelects that enjoy harrassing everyone. How much could it really cost to buy out the burned out lot and the few dying businesses there? as apposed to a beautiful and historical airport.
oops i commented on 2 issues at once there haha. put the sustainable living community there (not arena)
I hope their efforts FAIL. The airport can never be anything more than what it is today. Let’s close the airport and redevelop those lands into something that Edmonton be proud of.
And the medivac argument is flawed…….capital health has gone on record as saying that it’s not critical to have medivac out of the CCA. In fact, they were planning to relocate their services out of the internation anyways.
Let the CCA die and rest in peace.
hey “N” you have been smokin pot with andre haven’t you………….dr duckette told me they are going to build a new runway and a holding clinic for “non-emergency” transfer patients but do not have a plan for the “critical” patients……. a helicopter on standby at the international airport was talked about…bottom line is there IS NO PLAN…….and it is not alberta health”s place to say anything to the idiots here on council……..the health minister’s assistant is an emergency room physcian and agrees the airport [ from a medical perspective] needs to be left alone………but yuppy urbanites like you “n” have their heads up your butt……..you have been doin E haven’t you N………did you just move from toronto too N….do you have buzzing in your head like andre buddy…….there is medication you could take..hey do us a favor and “DO KIM ” for us would ya
hey “N” you need an old school boot up your ass to tickle that little brown brain of yours..think before you open your yap buddy………it just shows where edmonton is at and where we are going to end up………..
hey just on the news……….mandel and northlands board cut the indy advertizing budget by 50% this year…….sure would like to see how much mandel is making in his pocket on the airport property……….considering he is a land developer……we need to vote him out this fall…………..
“overhaul the hall this fall!!!!!!!!!!this is a battle cry boys………..get er done!
just heard the capitol EX is a waste of money……..rides are 40.00 PER PERSON…………..indy was great….mandel cut the indy adverizment budget by 50%……..overhaul the hall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would love to see who this guy “taxpayer ward 2” is. There’s some old guy who drives around in a white Mustang LX with the licence plate WARD2. I have a feeling that’s him. A cranky and angry old white dude who can’t spell, more than likely doesn’t have a formal education as you can read by his spelling errors and probably on some meds. Probably he’s upset that someone of a visible minority took his job, hence his hatred towards South Asian people. This person is a troll and has nothing constructive to say. Just ignore him or you’ll feed into his racist, derogatory, imbecile rants.
I am hoping Mayor Mandel just does what Mayor Daley did in Chicago with Meigs Field. One night bulldozers and wrecking balls went in and destroyed the runways. I can’t believe Envision Edmonton is wasting my time and getting all the support from those who don’t even live in Edmonton. It’s the flavour of the month and dumb Albertans will just follow the trend. Why are people so anxious to hang onto history. People whine about the costs to take a cab to EIA or how far it is. Why don’t you look at solutions instead of holding onto the past?
Anyone who has followed the this campaign from both sides will make an informed decision. I know I have. CLOSE ECCA NOW!!!
whats the matter you don’t like fords?……hey do you know the rcmp anti-terrorist hotline………my family fought and died for canada in both wars so YOU can enjoy your canadian citizenship, and have the right to blog buddy…….. and i cannot believe your attitude…….instead of coming to canada and becoming a canadian [christian since the beginning ] you come here and EXPECT things should be given to you ………2900.00 a month for refugee assistance…….yet the the canada pension pays our seniors 900.00 per month……you call me racist……no I AM A PROUD BORN AND RAISED CANADIAN…….you hide behind the multiculturism act to get what you want……i like newzeland’s priminister’s attitude……..you come here you learn to speak english or french……….you become christian…..and you get a job and contribute to canada……you don’t send your money home to the tamil tigers, and fly their flag in my country…………and spout your crap to the rest of us…you talk about me whining …….would you like some cheese with your’s…………what year was the canadian flag introduced…do you know?…..dumb albertan’s uh……..you need a proud canadian boot up your ass.to tickle that little brown brain of yours……….sure would like to meet you somtime, it would be like the airborne and the bikers at the rosslyn hotel……..you would have to have lived here for more than 6 months to remember that…………
you hide behind organization’s formed to hide your activities……….you make me sick …on what date was the raid on dieppe france made by the calgary regiment?……..on what day did nova scotia loose a whole regiment [ a whole generation ] in the war?……..what does the year 1967 mean in canadian history………. what are the words in the canadian national anthem? can you sing it or say it, probably not………if my spelling is all you can come up with i’ll settle for that…………i speak what is on the minds of maney maney canadians…….except they would never say it , me , i don’t give a shit……….i’ll say it ……….what about the dancing boys of afganistan……is that what your god is all about……..me, i do not want any part of you …..this is not a racial issue…it is an issue of patient care for the critically injured flying into the muni ……..nothing more nothing less.so quit your whining and get a job.oh and quit dancing for andre darminin….didn’t your mother tell you you’ll go blind………….
tim jobs .president of nait student association……780-471-7608……….says it is in the best intrest of nait students to close the muni……….even though the nait paramedics are the best in canada………he hates the indy……doesnt care about critical care patients….gimmee..gimmee……..gimmee… even when they are cutting courses at nait…….all from a bunch of kids at a trade school…..no political sciences at nait…..i say boycott nait……….
I can’t believe I kept my comment notifications on, for this post, this long. This thing went off the rails like 60 comments ago.
Jeff: But it’s funniest stuff I’ve read in a long time. 🙂
i think bruce tomm and the royal bank should not be left out of this fight…….it was the royal bank clauses in the loan agreement to need the city to be responsible for losses to the EIA from competition from the muni until 2052……remember the billion they got and we are paying for still……bruce tomm signed the lease at the EIA after the 95 vote……remember smillin salesman bill, and that bunch……….it is in fact toni caterina and the EIA that is behind the closure[ according to kim kershell.]…..so start emailing ed gibbons,kim kershell, toni caterina,….and of course the cheeky mayor…………OVERHAUL THE HALL THIS FALL !!!!!!!!!!!
Valid points from all sides. However, if given the chance, I will definitely vote to close. Hell, I’ll even campaign against keeping it open. I’m fed up about this ongoing issue, as many of you are. Whether its sooner or later, this airport will be closed. Why delay the inevitable? Why hinder our progress? Why allow the few who use the airport obstruct what could be one of the best things that could happen to the city. When the time comes, lets not forget what was once there, but celebrate what WAS there.
Celebrate Edmonton rejection of the aviation industry? Celebrate that most people take the more dangerous driving route to Northern Alberta? It doesn’t make sense. Closing the City Airport will give Edmonton the distinction of the worst air access of cities in North America.
I used google earth to find another city that would remove all airports so far away. I checked over 20 cities and haven’t found a worse one yet. What is forcing you to reject all aviation access within 25 km of Edmonton’s core. Does Edmonton just not want all the money this transportation infrastructure indirectly brings in. That is apparently the mandate of Edmonton airports. They want to remove Edmonton from air access, business travel, commuter air travel,air ambulance, Air training, Aircraft maintenance, etc.
Is Edmonton so rich it just can’t use all the money these activities bring in. All we need is one close in airport. Why not keep the one we have?
Is it just me or is this all just a little ridiculous. Whether we agree about the decision to close the airport or not, the fact is that the decision was made by the persons elected to make those types of decisions on society’s behalf and we are still arguing? It kind of makes me think of when I tell my kids “No” and I am met with a barrage of pleading and begging. Envision Edmonton, while I appreciate your plight, your time would probably be better spent making your future plans then fighting a decision that has been made quite clear a long time ago.
(And trying to get signatures at the fair? TACKY!)
Hmmmm…..with no Muni, what will be the emergency alternate landing strip for International Airport flights? You guessed it: Calgary. That’s rational. Mark F. makes solid points.
Those against the airport seem to repeatedly trot out the canard that “we voted, this was decided already”, while NEVER addressing the valid concerns raised about killing it, nor the concrete value added to the city by having it open.
Has ANYONE EVER heard of a major city in North America needing LESS transportation infrastructure? What crystal ball do these nay-sayers use to ascertain that Edmonton will never regret destroying an irreplaceable asset?
Does the EIA REALLY have landing slot space and the desire to accomodate a horde of tiny general aviation planes mixing it up with the airliners?
To Larry G – I don’t disagree with you at all. And, in fact, I miss the good old days when the Muni was a lot more functional than it is even now. It was commonplace when taking a short flight, even to Victoria that you flew out of the Muni. I would prefer that the airport not only remain open, but that it’s full potential would be made use of.
That being said, I am sick of all the drama. And now with the deadlines looming, the fight seems to have been taken to a much higher level. It is my opinion that that is something that should have been done a LONG time ago.
hey maria anybody that goes to that fair is TACKY……..nice to see mandel get a kick in the nuts from a provincal party , now maybe things will get interesting………….
Mr Mayor I,am with you all the way.Don’t let a bunch of Oilmen and their darling Danielle what’s her name tell you what we do in Edmonton.
So many pros and cons but,nobody ask one single most important question for the neighborhoods surrounding muni and that is: How many tens of thousands of tonnes dust and other pollutants do the aircraft spill on those people that live there.But,then who cares right about people.
zltako…….ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha…….ha ha ha ha haha ……..ha ha ha ha ha ha …..ha ha ha ha ha ha ha …….i’m speechless…….ha ha ha ha ha …………………………
boy steve mandel sure likes to whine…….he tries to make it look like his rights were violated………ha ha ha ha ha …….sure nice to see him get kicked in the nuts once and a while…..his, is the arena we have to fight in to stop this madness…….and it started with the legion and got worse from there……..now to stay inside because of air quality?………..
Zlatko
Thank-you for your question. I did some math to determine some rough estimates for the amount of fuel burned by the 80000 aircraft movements per year out of the muni if that is what you mean by pollutants even though only a portion of fuel burned becomes what might one call a pollutant.
Your question was how many tens of thousands of tonnes per year.
The ballpark answer based on my extensive experience in the various types of planes is 0.2 for the total fuel burned.
For comparison the 200000 ground vehicles in the area burn 200000 tonnes based on 1400 liters per vehicle per year.
The equivalent ballpark answer for cars and trucks is 20. (in terms of tens of thousands of tonnes)
If though these are very rough figures you can see that due to their numbers the cars and trucks burn about 100 times as much fuel in the area within about 6 km of the airport as the planes do.
I am puzzled about your question about dust the planes drop on neighborhoods. The only time airplanes can make dust is if their is some dirt beside the runway. Taking off the muni ruway surrounded by grass creates little of no dust. Airplanes do not create any dust while up in the air though they may pick up some.
If you have a dust problem at home it may come from trucks or other sources.
some times i wish a big 20 pound piece of frozen turd would rain down…….from the sky..
So if they close this money sucking, tax payer ripping off airport, just how much has city council promised to lower city taxes by?
They haven’t, wow what a surprise. Airplanes need a runway to land. A King Air medivac, can’t land on top of a hospital roof, and a helicopter is not used to fly most medivacs. If your child or parent was in need of serious medical attention, would you want them to fly to an airport 10 minutes from a hospital or 45 minutes away. I don’t know about you, but the answer is obvious for me.
Ok, let’s say that we keep the airport for… however long the lease lasts – what? 50 years or so? – and we have this argument all over again. Try and tell me one NEW OR BETTER argument that the pro-muni side can bring to the table. The answer is: none. We can upgrade medical centres in Ft. Mac or Grande Prairie. We can upgrade the EIA so that it can handle more traffic coming in from the North. We can upgrade Villenueve Airport so that it can take over for the ECCA. We can upgrade transportation so that travel to either airport is greatly reduced. The ECCA has almost maxed out on how far it can go.
colin ha ha ha ha ha ha ………ha h ha ha ha ha …….ha ha ha ha ha …..you must be a nait student………….ha ha ha ha ha remember what your mummy said colin” no glove no love” ….i hope you used a glove when you jumped kim kershell…….ha ha ha ha ha ha ………….you must be under 20 ………….
You didn’t answer my question…
you know what they say colin….if you are not smart enough to get your degree in law, medicine or engineering then go for a degree in arts or go to NAIT……….nait is closing courses, kim kershell’s riding has empty schools , so no LRT right now,so if NAIT doesn’t need it and there is not enough people in kim’s riding to run the LRT up there then why the hell close it ……..grab a brain colin…….and quit playing with yourself like that, didn’t your mummy tell you , you’ll go blind!……….you must have ADD, ADHD or am i missing something here………….mandel has fallen in love with your generation colin….he makes it easier for you to drive in the winter without slowing down……….he gives you a place to pee in public…………now, be a good boy and go to your room or i will make you eat your veggies………oh and no desert!…..and hey ,are you doing kim kershell? hope you wore a glove buddy…………
You still haven’t addressed any of my statements. In fact, looking back, you haven’t contributed at all to any argument. You’ve just attacked people personally. Until you can come up with an argument that a person with more than half a brain could come up with, I’ll assume you don’t actually know anything. You’ve certainly proved it.
colin , i’m tired of telling the same story over and over and over again………if you looked at my response ……..if NAIT doesn’t need the space and there isn’t the population to support an LRT line, then why close the airport…..NAIT has other property to rebuild, and they have cut programs….and the fact the province gave them a piece of property just south, i feel it is not in the best interest of the student body to support closure of the airport maybe 30 years down the road sure…….consolidation and decenteralision issues have been an up and down trend for years.the city has maney derlict properties in the downtown core to exploit yet they seem rather rushed to make this happen, which makes me believe people like you are having a threesome with kim and steve…..you a NAIT student?..how maney times do we need to tell this tale for you …get your head out of your ass buddy and give up the “E”………..
first nations people speak up !….with the closure of the muni your members will suffer. the alberta government is building a new runway and holding clinic for non urgent patients. there is NO plan for critical care patients from northern alberta. the hyperbaric chamber at the MISC hospital services all northern alberta and BC. these calls fall between emergency and non emergency, 1 hour delay for non urgent to 30 minutes for critical care patients. your members will sit at the holding clinic for hours waiting for a flight home.just read this blog to see the attitude of edmontonions regarding the first nations people. any closure or restriction of parient flow will affect your members. call the mayors office at 780-496-8100 or kim kershell at 780-496-8136 to voice your opinions. just read this blog at length to get a feel for the discrimination against first nations in northern alberta. i worked for 16 years in edmonton EMS before a brain injury ended it for me , i have fought a brave battle for patients like the first nations but these people will not listen. NOW IS YOUR CHANCE TO SPEAK UP FIRST NATIONS PEOPLE… lets see what you got first nations people!
once upon a time a few years ago edmonton had a world class EMS service.NAIT included but srceaming jan riemer, tire salesman bill smith, and now mandel, have fought for years to be rid of the service. the city of edmonton spent thousands of dollars training yet they treated us like palistinians as liabilities without the right to exist. mandel has worked very very hard to dump the EMS service and finally did it.it is a personal mission of his. he has a very checkered past with the sick and injured in the city of edmonton. yet the city looked the other way when bruce tomm got nabbed for impaired driving….they just had bill pick him up for work each morning, yes bill smith [the tire salesman] so there is a historical agenda here folks……i will vote for anybody but this goof this fall…’just live with it ” he says to those who choose to speak out . the city of edmonton has done nothing for the current military , but the chamber of commerce did send a bunch of pot heads to the base, on canada day. the car dealerships had a nice display no deals though, just sales. heritage harley had a trailer and 8 foot wire fence up , nobody around though the first time the military opened up an active military base to the public and the city of edmonton sends a bunch of pot heads up there to get drunk and stupid.mandel has tried to put a spin on the 100 year tradition of K-DAYS , the INDY race where he voted to reduce the advertizing budget by 50% this year , so you see how he likes to dump things and to hell with everybody else…….you bet i will be talking to all the first nations chiefs throughout western canada. you can not BS me on this issue. we need to overhaul the hall this fall people!!!!!!!
well, the worst generation canada has seen in decades is upon us.the generation mandel is catering to.one just has to read this blog at length to see that. the seeds of the dead head generation have sprouted. ADD, ADHD among others, acid and booze mixed with pot and what ever else their parents took back then is finally catching up . king ralph klein had it right ” let those eastern bums freeze in the dark” .andre darminin is one . ralph had it right!.mandel is treating edmontonions like palistinians his way or the highway! what’s the matter with you’all your sure quiet now..it was nice to see steve with his panties in a knott the other day for a change…as if his rights were violated ha ha ha what about the rights of northern albertans for unobstructed health care . in 2005 i flew with mandel to fort mac from the muni and he had no problem getting on that plane. so the lies and back room deals and aggenda’s shine through. the problem you poeple have is your memories are way to short! you are a bunch of kosher sheep being led to the dinner table. and you bloggers only give some of the information to the public not all…..when the city of edmonton covers for the city manager and his drunk driving charge one has to wonder. the same drunk who signed away the muni to the royal bank and the EIA. see how the EIA jumped onboard the heritage festival to spin it. i see through the bullshit being thrown around here.EIA and the ROYAL bank are in too [ according to kim kershell]. stay strong envision edmonton , get the first nations , the federal and the provincal governments questioning this back room deal and do not forget rural albertans….this is WAR …. hey wait that was al that got the drunk driving charge bruce was into the coke and girls.or so they say!
For all those anti-airport you will be happy to hear that tonight at 730 runway 16/34 is closing. That is the perfectly good runway that we use in inclement weather for safer landings. Another nail in the coffin? Yup, both literally and figuratively.
If, as it appears, ECCA closure is a done deal, it would have been nice to have the back up plan in place and functional, not just theoretical hypothesis about future alternatives. There is no option available that will provide the level of service that the ECCA provides. The city will regret this move as it sees the negative financial results of this short sighted “vision”. Lost revenue from all the businesses, agencies and personal users, all to open up land that nobody is in the market to develop anyway.
Sounds pretty smart to me.
what do you expect from a land developer wearing a black mickey mouse hat……mandel thats who………
what you flight medics need to do is keep a log of the times your patient was delayed and release it to the press ………..or give it to me and i’ll say what needs to be said……there is more than one way to kick a turd!……talk to your first nations patients , and their band members call mandel at 780-496-8100 or kim kershell at 780-496-8136….and let them know……………..
I would like to thank Paula Simons for writing this article.
http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Wildrose+leader+should+accept+that+already+voted+Muni/3352786/story.html
hey ullie quit your snivilin…………
the real problem here is….we are dealing with the worst generation of canadians this country has ever seen……..mandel’s record speaks for it’s self……kicked the legion in the nuts over YESS drop-in cnetre on whyte ave then gives them more millions to bail them out…….rebranded a 100year old tradition called K-DAYS………..voted to reduce the INDY advertizing budget by 50% this year….has the graders going all winter long so the kids can speed around , texting and picking while driving……this is a generation of gimmee, gimmee, gimmee, my right , my right, my right…when the educational requirements are to tough NAIT cuts the course [ aircraft sheet metal , instruments ].like they say if you can’t get a degree in law, medicine or engineering then go for the ARTS degree or go to NAIT!…..it is a violent generation full of ADD ,ADHD among others with rampent binge drinking and street drugs . kids these days do not raid gardens any more, they get drunk and stoned and go looking for a fight……everybody is fair game from the 93year olds right down to the small kids!…….this is mandel’s generation…..his kids! …of the so called 750,000 people that went to capitol EX about 250,000 came through my neighborhood…..dozens pissing anywhere they felt, even in front of small kids, a shooting over drugs…….parking signs ripped from the ground and put through my nieghbors car window……..parking any where they felt.handicap etc…..total disrespect , swearing and yelling at the old people it goes on and on these are the kids mandel has fallen in love with and “GET OVER IT” he says to the citizens of edmonton. we need to overhaul the hall this fall!
The Mandel plan is so ill conceived it’s unbelievable.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the site reclamation costs are in the neighbourhood of a billion dollars. This will be put on the backs of taxpayers.
Accommodation for 30,000 residents is what I believe Mr Mandel said would be developed on the 450+ acres. Allowing for some NAIT Land, Roads, LRT and a few Mandel Marts, there will probably be something like 300 acres set for residential development or about 100 people per acre. I`m thinking that the development will be more along the lines of what has happening at the Heritage Mall Site. As far as I`m concerned, if this goes ahead we will be witnessing the development of the Edmonton “Airport ghetto“.
The Taxpayers of Edmonton will be funding the infrastructure costs here as well, another significant cost.
No realistic plan for the medical flights.
No realistic plan for the existing industrial traffic.
And I cannot believe the lack of concern for the million plus residents north of Edmonton. All of whom are `Customers` of the business community of this city in some way or another.
Anyone want to bet that heads are going roll over this in the civic election?
gca…..overhaul the hall this fall!!!!!!!
The above link should solve all problems! Now everybody (on both sides of the fence) get back to work! You are all making us look bad. Keep the damn thing until 2050-whatever, then burn it to the ground like its a St. Albert baseball diamond. Where will you be by that time? More than likely dead or wishing you were, so use your current time wisely.
the plot thickens as several emails between the EIA and mandel plotting the closure of the muni. to find out that mandel owns land next to the muni and will make millions with the closure. liberal ann mcclennen is in on it as well firing off emails plotting , plorring , plotting……everybody take pictures of the empty lots along 107 ave and send them to the sun newspaper…put them on a web site for people to see..thieves , liars ,mandel has to go out the door……………..
Hey Malcom Bisset/Taxpayer Ward 2, I see you stopped ranting at Daveberta but keep ranting here. Is it because your hypocrisy and involvement with criminals (and possible involvement in criminal activities) were revealed there?
http://www.lethbridgeherald.com/content/view/10771/26/
marko ,you are a goof and if i was mr bisset i would sue your little ass. you are mistaken you idiot……i don’t know this mr bisset. it just shows you what this generation will do to get what they want. if it is not “E” then it is pot or crack or it’s their ADD,ADHD. as it is your right to be a turd in this country marko it is my right to rant at you little FU—ERS . i like the artical in the national post , it says it all!…you call it rants i call it the truth. you kids are like a bunch of kosher little piggies on the way to the dinner table…..some of us see right through mandel’s crap. i think you should read court evidence, emails to EIA from all the little rats ……marko how are your marks at NAIT? are you passing or is the meth catching up with you. hey marko remember what your mom said no glove no love! i hope you remembered that when kim let you climb on!……….oh and i read that link and he sounds like a tough son of a bitch to me. so i would no use his name in vain……….or he might put a boot up your ass!. then again you might like that………
Taxpayer ward 2: you were stupid enough to post earlier using your real name, and were stupid enough on Daveberta to point out your brain injury is from being shot in the head.
You’re just angry because you’re not capable of rational thoughts and didn’t think that telling us your name plus the nature of your brain injury would result in people figuring out who you were.
you flatter me marko but you are wrong, and like i sadi i do know malcolm bisset , but what i gather he is a tough mother and i would not use his name in vain. should you coose to do so, then there is allways consiquences to those poor decisions marko……not for me but for you should he decide to sue you for using his name, on a blog where it is not allowed , but me i don’t give a shit….my accidnet happened near chestemeer east of calgary during a really nasty fight ……i faced no charges after that,,,,deemed self defense……….
Again, you were stupid enough to post earlier using your real name Malcom/taxpayer ward 2.
Or are you claiming that when you made up a random name earlier it just happend to be the name of someone else who happened to be shot in the head?
It’s clear that you lied about being attacked by “crack heads” and now you’re just angry that you were caught in your lie and everyone now knows what kind of person you really are.
marko if that’s as good as you are capable of ok i can live with that. you know everyhing i have said regarding you little turds is true. if you want to believe your story then by all means. the facts are still out there regarding the worst generation in canadian history, that being you marko. your are as bad as andre darminin,marko. us adults see through the games of your generation, i must say you are out of bed early today, did your boyfriend wake you up?…i do not have to repeat what i have said regarding mr bisset.as HE is a tougher son of a bitch than you I am not going there. if YOU want to then so be it.to defend the crackheads as you have done only makes it clear you and your friends are smoking crack and meth and the more you say the clearer it becomes marko .to try and deflect the truth and protect your friends and your dealers you spread bullshit. you think what you want to think buddy , you still are as dumb as a sack of hammers!mr bisset is obviously a man of honor in my books, in the end nobody was hurt except him when he showed these people the door, according to YOUR link . so say what you want, i want nothing to do with mr.bisset and his hitman ways. if you want to poke a cobra in the eye then you must be prepared to get bit in the ass!.but that is what your generation does marko…..then you cry to mummy and daddy or the cops……….stupid is stupid is stupid
Oh Malcom from Ward 2, At first I felt sorry for you and wondered how much your brain injury had changed you, but now that I’ve seen your well known history it’s clear that you were always this demented.
hey jimmy whats up!you just get up!
you made my case with the kid who claimed to have cancer and ripped the childrens hospital and the public off for 20,000. go figure eh!….their parents have given them everything so they have not had to work for it, they now expect it! or i will be a gangster, put 20inch wheels on a jap scrap or a pinto and cruise around trying to look tough…….selling crack or meth to their friends……..all the good kids are now families and moved out of edmonton a long time ago.leaving it to the bottom feeders………..
this story is like the AVERO AERO story……overhaul the hall this fall!
Let’s just extend the LRT to the International Airport, and hopefully that will just kill this issue once and for all.
Today, ANYBODY can host a blog and pretend they investigate news.
There was a vote by the people of Edmonton. The Airport, the people said, will stay open.
The current council, going against anything even resembling democracy, are railroading the people of edmonton because I believe they want personal kickbacks from developers.
This issue, after the people voted, should never have been on councils radar. and it wouldn’t have been except for the special interest of the greedy developers who backdoored the legal decision of the people of Edmnonton and went directly to those they knew were easily corruptable.
Did you just start following news/blogging as if you know something recently?
Ernie Smith.
Yes Ernie, the airport was voted to stay open in 1995. But there wasn’t an option to close it.
The exact wording of the plebiscite:
Do you direct City Council to repeal “The Edmonton Municipal Airport referendum bylaw” (No. 10,205)? That bylaw requires the City to operate the Municipal Airport and promote that airport’s air passenger service.
A “YES” vote means that the City will promote MOVING scheduled air passenger service to the Edmonton International Airport.
A “NO” vote means that the City will promote MAINTAINING scheduled air passenger service at the Edmonton Municipal Airport.
—–Under both options the City will continue to own and offer general air services (e.g. private planes, small charters, air ambulance) at the Municipal Airport.—–
Yes 166,404 76.81%
No 50,253 23.19%
mandels developer buddies are building a new hotel at the international airport they needed the muni closed as a condition of their financing [competition clause]. we are getting screwed here, and it is obvious ! he says GET OVER IT……well i say OVERHAUL THE HALL THIS FALL!,,,caterina and gibbons and kershell, batty ALL of them need the boot!.. i don’t mind getting screwed but mandel could at least give us the courtesy of a reach around! mandel is a crooked little man and needs a boot up his ass!
I believe it is a bad idea to insult the mayor. I am a strong supporter of keeping the airport and the economic trade it brings in. The mayor is likely unaware of the airport benefits seeing as the people involved in general aviation are likely outside of his circle of advisory. It is not civil to insult him. He is elected to be our mayor.
During this debate I learned he is Jewish. In the larger picture our society has been evil in their attacks on Jewish people. The Jewish people have brought the greatest benefit to mankind.
I don’t think our Jewish mayor should be opposed in this insulting manner. In the smaller picture I hope we can save our airport.
The best possible result in my opinion would be to keep both our city center airport and our mayor.
you read what you want into my rant but [as with the current situation with the tamils , some of who returned for a vacation] i believe in “the country of origion”. i do not believe mandel is a good Canadian , there is an expectation that people are law abbiding citizens , with the evidence presented in court by envision edmonton , i believe mandel is in the back pocket of many land developers, and is poised to make millions for himself , his family and friends. so if you like getting screwed in the most public way then that is fine , however it is my rght to insult anybody i wish. it was hitler’s society that was evil not our’s so don’t give me that crap, being civil has worked so far right? a shitbird is a shitbird is a shitbird as i see it mandel is a shitbird . all he has to say to the people who voted him in is “GET OVER IT “, what kind of shit is that. he obviously lacks a good moral compass. so you can vote him in again if you want . i would put my boot up his ass!
mandels kids have struck again in sherwood park! 2 of them beat up a 78 yr old in a wheel chair for is ipod……this is the generation mandel is in love with. lets see 20 yr old runs a scam with the kids hospital and 20 thousand then a 93 yr is attacked and sexually assaulted [93 god damn years old] steves vision of the young yuppy urbanitte texting in the downtown core is fucked up,. all he has is a bunch of homless drug addicts and kids with guns and knives running aroun killing each other
If more Edmontonians knew the complete history of the Muni they would want it registered as a historic site, not close it. Being involved in aviation since 1957, having flown as a crew member in and out of the Muni and all over North America for years, I have a better understanding of the importance of the airport than all of city council put together. In the past I have been told by visiting Canadians and Americans that their cities would “kill” to have an airport like it. Grow up, city council, it is an Alberta issue, not only an Edmonton issue.
Butthead….you miss the other side of the story. Mandell and his pals attempting to fill their pockets by selling another city asset to themselves….Remember Capital Power?
The issue is the future position of Edmonton. A Gateway to the North (your too young to remember this original motto for Edmonton) or a land of shopping malls and condos.
Blatchford Field is a valuable asset that should be used to BRING business to Edmonton. It should be a hub, gateway to the North, and all the present and FUTURE development.
The International Dump-port does not serve Edmonton well for this. I know from experience that Business people will go to Calgary rather than the International Dump-port. Calgary is better access from the airport to the city’s business discrict, DOWNTOWN.
So….if you want Edmonton to become a backwater….Agree with Mandell and his plan to become a very weatlthy man….or with Envision Edmonton which see that Edmonton could have a bright future.
If people could see what is really going on the bums would be in jail. Edmonton should be called Chicago of the north. Same back door dealing and palm greasing.
may the flees of a thousand palistinian camels infest mandels sisters …. overhall the hall this fall!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
Whereas my taxes support the CCA,
and, whereas the citizens (taxpayers) of Edmonton voted to consolidate scheduled traffic to the EIA,
and whereas I personally don’t care what outside communities want for air service to MY downtown, in the same vein that I don’t expect the taxpayers of Grande Prairie, as an example, to support my wish for a traffic light-free expressway from highway 43 to their downtown,
and whereas the proportionally few of the medivac flights are time sensitive, the added few minutes of highway time is comparable to that of other major Canadian cities,
and whereas I can now be almost guaranteed not to have to make a lengthy stopover in Calgary whenever I fly,
then my wish is for Edmonton to stay the course and shut down the CCA.
A further point: given that the citizenry will never allow B737 types to operate out of the CCA and at most would tolerate 19 passenger propeller aircraft, then does the CCA support itself, and if not, am I as a taxpayer expected to subsidize the CCA? A downtown airport has a nice ring to it and so would a replica of the Taj Mahal but I’m not paying for either.
The last post I recieved was dribble…the guy has his head up his ass….and thinks he smells roses….Assholes like him are just rig pigs. Give them beer, smokes and gas in their pickup…there happy. NO CONCEPT OF BUSINESS AND HOW TO ATTRACT BUSINESS. Hope the ashole enjoys his beer and smokes!!!!!
Dave K, I don’t know if you’re refuting my last entry or not, I just can’t make you out. As for slamming rig pigs, I know a few of these and I can tell you that their spelling would be better than yours, i.e. “recieved”/received or “there happy”/they’re happy. Their intellectual level, I’m sure, would exceed yours as well.
Learn to spell, asshole, and try being a bit more articulate and polite.
Look Rubber nuts,
I see your at the level of a Rig Pig….Beer, Smokes and Gas in the Pickup. IF you had any knowledge of the issues, it would be worth debating you butthead. I have involved with this issue for many years…..I have seen the economic impact studies, heard the presentations, and heard the advocates of the Airport closer belittle the citizens for their stupidity….I have been there…Where were you, ASSHOLE? So Asshole, tells us where you get your info from? I have from those in the know…..
I have an advanced degree…..beyond your and your rig pig friend’s grade 6, Gethro Bodeen, diploma. My mistakes are from anger at dipsticks like yourself pushing my buttons and typing too quick.
Here is some insight into the REAL issue at stack. The issue is the vision of the future of Edmonton.
Envision Edmonton and supporters:
Edmonton should use a valuable transportation asset to regain our position as “Gateway to the North” (Remember, before City of Champions). Use of Blatchford field as a transportation hub to Northern communities and the explosive growth in the arctic. Let the 30 to 50 seat region jets fly north and Northeast and bring more current business and FUTURE BUSINESS to Edmonton. One or two flights a day would allow business people quick, daily, access to the business’ in Edmonton. Estimates are billions would come to Edmonton and tens of millions into City Coffers.
Stevie Mandell’s view of Edmonton:
Steal a valuable asset. Give the contract for redevelopment to his old pals at Qualico, Stantec and the likes. Then, take the small price paid for the land….Give it to Katz to build an arena. An arena he keeps the revenue from. Stevie then retires and goes to sit on the boards of the people he gave millions to…..He’s rich…Katz is richer and Edmonton becomes a suburb of Calgary.
The chance to be the hub to the new arctic developement is lost. I know from the people I know….they would stay on the plane a few minutes longer….land at the nice airport in Calgary….zip into the business district and be home for dinner….
Edmonton….well…the Leduc airport dies a slow death…we build a high speed train to Calgary and fly out of there….
So Rubber….what is it? A future for business in Edmonton or a Suburb of Calgary?
Dave K
………..picture this little rubber streached over his ADHD head and then you know you are just talking to nothing but a dick that likes to push buttons……what do you expect from somebody living with bedbugs and loving it !
rubber sound like one of these little pricks running around downtown robbing people all high on crack and speed , probably goes to NAIT and takes the bus everyday to school! little fucker!
what kind of a name is rubber?…….sounds a little like speed and crack mixed together. you go to NAIT fucker? you need a boot up your ass to slap that little brown brain of yours! are you friends with andre darminin? go back to toronto you little prick! we do not need your kind in alberta and take mandel back to the hood with you!
Whoa there Fu.
Take a 2-minute break. Check out http://citycenterairport.ca. It’ll do you good.
if the city center land is opened up for development it may slow down the development of the outskirts. those land speculators with interests out there would be prime supporters of envision and any attempt to keep their investment time line on track. it doesn’t have to be about direct interest in the airport, just the land.
FU MANDEL, I’ll take this opportunity to gloat at your expense. The election is over; we won, you lost, asshole. Go back to your sorry life and don’t even bother with a rebuttal since I’m never revisiting this site. The likes of you deprived idiots who can’t communicate with civility are not worth a moment of my time.
We won, you, FU lost (very appropriate first name)!
You lost, loser!
Anybody else out there, this type of languare and gloating is not meant for you. I acknowledge and respect your hopes but it looks like the electorate was not supportive enough of your position. Your fight is not necessarily over. Good luck and adios.
I moved to Edmonton to work at the city center airport. My family helped in the campaign to try to keep the airport open. We got signatures on the Envision petition and helped airport friendly candidates in the civil elections. We put considerable time effort and money into trying to save this airport. In the end we lost in a democratic election. I guess we have to figure out an exit plan now to a airplane friendly place.I’m pretty much one skill guy. At least there nothing left to argue about. We lost and it was democratic.
Mark F,
I feel for you. But, this is a bigger blow to the city than most realize. The economic impact is huge…in terms of lost jobs and business to Edmonton.
Your are in error about it being democratic. Mandell rigged the vote in council with bullying and dirty tricks. The petition signatures were verified by Envision Edmonton before submitting. Funny how Mandell’s clerk finds nearly 20% invalid. Still, he bullied council to bury it..no democracy here. Then…how about the former CSIS spy that was in the Darwood camp. Funny how he had connections to get stuff into the papers etc. with perfect timing. Wonder who paid for this professional spy to do what he did?
So, Mark, there is no democracy in this issue….just a greedy Mandell and his beanie boy pals from the synagogue!!!!!! Robbing us again like they did with Capital Power…remember that one?
Dave
Dave
It’s true that the process was seriously flawed. Obviously the petition signatures should have been checked by an independent body not hired by the city. I think municipal affairs should have been looking after it. It is quite disturbing that so much effort was brushed aside.
I’m not convinced Mandel has personal gain in mind. I just don’t think he is aware of the value of airport access to northern Alberta.
There has been a lot of misinformation. The Airport Authority has been pumping it out for years, plus consulting reports paid for by our taxes have been prepared which have clearly false and misleading information.
In spite of all that the people should have been able to see through it but they still voted the same group in by a good margin. Somehow they think closing an airport is forward thinking.
I find it personally disturbing every time I can’t land a medevac here due to the closure of runway 34. We were able to land here in virtually any weather just a few months ago.
I’ve worked many jobs into this airport from various towns and also worked out of this airport in multiple ways for 30 years. I know for certain that statements like:
“it’s only for a few rich guys” or
“medevacs won’t be affected”
are false.
I’m sure Calgary with it’s new runway being built will surge way ahead of Edmonton economically. In fact I think Calgary will still not be able to meet demand with the new runway. Edmontonians don’t appear to be aware of the value of air connections north and the huge revenues they can bring in.
Nevertheless we gave it our best shot at convincing voters and lost. I just don’t see how we can fix this.
Mark,
My job puts me in a position to see things others can’t be made aware of….Trust me….Mandel is in this for the money…..
Remember, Mandel wasn’t even going to run for a 3rd term until opposition to his pals and his plans arose. He ran to defend his ‘gains’
Dave
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Plebicites, concepts, consultants, “redevelopment “, “moving forward”,….Blah…blah…Blah!
Thanks to the self-serving bureaucrats and business people as well as others trying to rationalize and talk ’til the cows come home about alternative emergency services the bottom line here is that those of us living in Northern Alberta and beyond and unfortunate to find ourselves in a medical emergency will be facing the reduced opporunity to survive that emergency medical situation if it involves a “Medivac”. Plain and simple.
Be interesting to see how this will impact Edmonton based businesses. There are a number of NW Alberta residents who have already determined that they may as well by-pass edmonton and carry on to Calgary where there appears to be more interest in providing services North of Highway 16. Me included. I have personally travelled out of -Province 3 times since end of May. In 2 instances I flew direct to Calgary, then on connecting flights. On the other occasion I drove to Calgary for the flight out of Province. Despite the inconvenience, no plans to include Edmonton hotels, Edmonton International, etc in any of my future itineraries.
While they talk about concerns with Medevac, they completely ignore the health of locals. The municipal airport is too close to residential area and these planes fly constantly too low overnight. It is a big health concern for local residents. I would like to refer to studies of the impact of sleep deprivation and the effect of noise on high blood pressure. How many flights have jeopardized peoples health is a study that should be conducted. Would these aviation enthusiasts be willing to compensate?
Mack D Male go fist yourself asshole