Well many of you already know my views on religion, so I will jump right to what this post is about. As I normally do before going to see a movie that intrigues me, I have been reading many reviews and articles regarding Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ”. And let me tell you, there has been no shortage of words written about this movie and its supposed controversy.
Yes thats right, I call it a “supposed controversy”. Many people are upset that the film portrays Jews as the reason for the death of Jesus. Whether you believe this is what happened or not doesn’t really matter. You can believe whatever you want to with regards to his death, or murder as you might call it. What matters is that this movie just proves one of my biggest problems with religion – that people put their fanatical beliefs before reason and logic. Confused? Let me explain.
Jeffrey Katzenberg and David Geffen, KG of DreamWorks SKG, have both expressed anger at the movie and have taken the further step of proclaiming that they will never support another Mel Gibson project again, whether it be him directing, acting, etc. And let me tell you, they are not alone. You can read more about this at the New York Times.
So what do we have here? Two prominent Hollywood executives (not to mention the countless others who agree with them) are going to place their personal beliefs above that of business logic – Gibson is a very popular actor, with large box office draws, and has proven himself to be a talented director as well. This is one aspect of religious belief that I completely do not agree with. Even further, other executives have said they will avoid Gibson projects because Mel made comments to defend his father, who believes the Holocaust was “all fiction”. So now its wrong for someone to defend their family? Would you defend your father? Whatever happened to free speech anyway?
So here’s why this bothers me: “The Passion of the Christ” is work of art, created by Mel Gibson from start to finish, and paid for largely out of his own pocket. Don’t you think its funny that so many things are protected as “works of art” and yet when it comes to religion, nothing else matters? This is a personal project for him, something he feels very passionately about – listen to any recent interview to get a feel for this.
The real controversy surrounding this movie should be whether or not Mel Gibson is persecuted for creating a work of art based on his own beliefs and feelings regarding religion, NOT about whether or not the depiction of the death of Jesus is correct, or anti-semetic, or anything else. I am not religious, and so even though I do not agree with Gibson’s views, I can respect that he feels strongly enough about his beliefs that he wishes to create something which captures his emotion.
We just finished a good discussion over at Dickson’s blog, but I felt compelled to write this after reading some more articles about the movie. The fact that religion is taken so seriously by some people that it interferes with the otherwise normal way of things (executives deciding to not support a Gibson project because it tanks at the box office, not because of his beliefs) just doesn’t seem right to me. That people will turn a blind eye to everything else, ignoring logic and reason, is just wrong.
I am interested to see this movie, partially because of the controversy, but also because I am a Gibson fan and I plan to enjoy and support his latest project – or at the very least decide for myself if the movie was entertainment or not, regardless of the religious beliefs expressed. After all, what are movies for?
MasterMaq's Blog 
I am quite intrigued with "The Passion of the Christ". But I heard it was quite gory. I’ll go with you to watch it. How’s Friday?
And I’ll continue the religion discussion later. Maybe after my midterms.
I waited in excitement to see the talent Mel Gibson has in showing all people the suffering Jesus, our living God went thru. As I watched this movie it amazed me at the beating, whipping and spit our Lord took for all people. It seems to be even harder now, for me to be able to show my love and even faith the God himself. I will never, I pray turn away from my true and loving God. I plan on going to see it this week a second time to see and understand what I have missed which was probably alot. Thank you Jesus for everything you have done for me and all people.
Jesus is love! Love him for he love’s you no matter who you are or how you believe. Turn to your God!!!
I am not sure who you are, but I do not appreciate preaching, especially not on MY blog. If you have your beliefs, great, but keep them to yourself.
Therese Rocheleau, I have a few comments for you.
1) Jesus is not love. He is a man and only a man. He is nothing more. Its the fallacy of human perception that has made him what he is today. Look at William Hung.
2) Does Jesus love Hitler? If Jesus lived in Hitler’s era, I’m sure Jesus would have just become another statistic.
3) "Love him for he love’s you no matter who you are or how you believe."
I don’t believe in Jesus. I believe in myself. My God holds a hammer.
Jesus is a wimp. He didn’t take the "whiping, and spit" for all people. It still exists.
Dickson Wong,
1)Jesus is love. He loves you, believe it or not. How can you reject a perfect love?
2)Jesus loved Hitler. He loves all sinners. He would not have been a statistic becuase he is the son of God. He died so that we can live.
3)God is love. Unlike Him, I am imperfect, therefore I believe that you are pretentious.
How do you know Jesus is all love? Did you see him in person? How do you know he loves me? Did he tell you? I’m going to tell you I’m son of God – do you believe me? Where does your evidence or proof come from? The bible certainly doesn’t provide any proof – perhaps only the proof of his existence but his mere existence does not give him divine power. And besides, how can the bible be truth if it is written by imperfect beings?
How am I pretentious by making valid points?
Not only are you imperfect, you are also gullible. Leave some contact information.
Oh, the neverending debate between the believer and the liberal. I responded to each of your points in the last posting and I feel no need to waste my time now. I lied.
1) faith
2) yes, I feel his presence daily
3) because lucky for you, someone actually does
4) no
5) no becasue cynicism is not the attribute of a Savior
6) the Bible
7) his mere existance is what got you here
8) you find truth in imperfect beings everyday, I’m sure
9) becuase you are, and you know it
I am imperfect and I will be in an eternity of perfection when I leave this earth.
crawfa@wku.edu
You did not respond to each of my points, in fact you avoided it with baseless claims.
1) Faith
If God’s existence can be proven without doubt, then there is no need for faith.
2) yes, I feel his presence daily.
Really? Under different circumstances, you would have been sent to a mental institute.
Secondly, ever heard of the placebo effect?
3) because lucky for you, someone actually does
Another baseless claim.
4) no
This was rhetorical.
5) no becasue cynicism is not the attribute of a Savior
Another rhetorical question. Furthermore, your definition of savior
6) the Bible
Which Bible? There are many DIFFERENT versions. I guess they must all be true, despite the many contradictions.
7) his mere existance is what got you here
Yet another baseless claim. Keep it coming.
8) you find truth in imperfect beings everyday, I’m sure
I also find an equal number of crap coming out of imperfect beings. Therefore, I rely on concrete evidence such as mathematics or at the very least, more convincing evidence like Science instead of just relying on the word of others. Why do you think there are so many denominations of Christianity? People didn’t like parts of the bible so broke off and formed their own. How do you know which bible is the true one, assuming there is a true one? How do you know you are in the right denomination.
NOTE: I will not accept faith as an answer.
9) becuase you are, and you know it
What kind of rebuttal is that?
Your rebuttal is clearly weak and baseless. Here’s another chance to reclaim yourself.
1)Did everyone who died before Jesus died go to Hell? Justify your answer.
2) Explain why I should believe that your God is all-good when the only real information we have about him is the Bible, which clearly describes Him as both good and evil. (See Isaiah 30:27-33, Luke 14:26, Numbers31:17-18, Matthew 10:34, Amos 3:6, Deuteronomy 20:16,Exodus 20:5, Exodus 32:27, Isaiah 45:7, Psalms 52:5, Luke 22:36, and Jeremiah18:11 for a small sample of Biblical passages which describe God as having an evil morality at times).
3) Explain why some people (James, Peter, Paul, Thomas,etc.) should get convincing physical proof of miracles, while the rest of us are supposed to take these happenings on faith.
4) Given the fact that Jesus did not say anything original(the Golden Rule and the "turn the other cheek" idea were stolen from Buddhism; and the Beatitudes were common in the Jewish devotional literature at the time), why do you see Jesus as such a great thinker/philosopher/ ethicist?
5) Do you feel that the last words of Christ were significant? If so, why do the four gospels attribute three different sentences to Christ as his last? (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34: "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"; Luke 23:46: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit"; John 19:30: "It is finished").
Those are a few among my MANY questions. Please note, I will not take "faith" as an answer.
How can you convince non believers when you can’t even agree among the many factions of your religion?
5) Your definition of Savior does not mean Jesus was a savior.
I am obviously less educated than you on the subject matter. I tried and it obviously was useless. Regardless, your extensive research has not and will not change my ‘close-minded’ religious views. So I am agreeing to disagree. You are, I’m sure, satisfied with your defeat. Take your questions to a ‘better’ Christian and I am sure you will be enlightnened.
I never gave a definition for Savior. I am also unaware of the placebo effect.
I do not wish to change your religious views. I just want to point out to you that God’s creation of earth and mankind is only but one theory among many. I’m not saying science is the absolute truth but neither is religion. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.
The placebo effect is attributing an improvement to health that is not related to the treatment. For example, in a clinical trial of a pill, they will give some patients with the actual drug and others with pills filled with only sugar. Many of the patients who have taken the sugar pill claim that their health has improved because they believe the pill is doing something, when it fact it is not. This is called the placebo effect.
owned
I really want to jump into this discussion, but I can’t, I have to study. Maybe on the weekend. Anyways, I do have to make a few points though. What does Josie mean by "debate between the believer and the liberal"? Believers aren’t liberal? That’s gets me soooooo mad.
All her arguments are so basic and wholly unsupported by facts. I bet you she’s a Protestant, they’re all so righteous and blind.
Oh, and Dickson. You’re wrong on alot of stuff too. I’ll rebut on the weekend. Andrew was right, this was an interesting read.
I’m sure I’m wrong on alot of stuff, but at the sametime I’m sure I’m right on alot of stuff too. I look forward to hear your input.
I am not a Protestant. I am able to be addressed, though, and unwilling to accept being categorized incorrectly. True, I did invoke a debate that I am unable to argue to it’s full extent. Despite the fact that I am set in my ways does not mean I am not willing to learn more. This interests me greatly and I too am looking forward to bean’s rebuttal…with every righteous bone in my body.
Dickson, it’s true that you’re right on some things, a little off in others. I think your comments were a little caustic and arrogant. But I understand why, arguments with no evidence to back it up irk me too.
Josie, sorry I labelled you as a Protestant. Do you even know the definition of Protestant? It’s any Christian denomination that is not Catholic or Orthodox, ie. Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, etc.
Anyways, here we go again…
1) Literally, Jesus is not love. Metaphorically, He is. He was one of the few Jewish leaders in Biblical history who ever befriended the fringes of the society without judging them. Example: the lepers, adulterers, tax collectors, etc.
Jesus IS a man though. He did suffer the ultimate human fate: death. Yet, His divinity it shown throughout the New Testament. Are the gospels reliable though? Historians usually operate on the burden of proof on the historian to prove falsity or unreliability, since people are not generally compulsive liars. Without this assumption, we’d know very little about ancient history, or any history for any matter. Jesus’ claims are mentioned in so many people’s writings. Are they all in a conspiracy to lie to the masses?
2) Yes, Jesus did love Hitler. "Love the sinner, hate the sin." The fact is we, as humans, have free will. It is our choice to do evil acts. But no matter what we do, God loves us.
If He lived in Hitler’s time, maybe he would have been killed. But then what would Hitler be? Pontius Pilate. The Bible would just be rewritten.
3) OK, I concede that you don’t believe, and probably never will, but that doesn’t mean God doesn’t love you. I certainly hope you believe in yourself; your self-esteem would be pretty crappy if you didn’t. I too believe in myself.
Your God holds a hammer? Is is Thor? Or Hepheaastus? Is it to smite the heathens? 🙂
The other points:
1) True, you need faith to beleive in God. But you also need faith to believe in science. There is NO proof in science. Only theories and conjectures based on evidence. A theory is only valid so long as there is no evidence falsifying it. Since there is no proof in science or religion. Does it make you both wrong? Does it make me doubly wrong for believing in both?
2) Dickson, have you ever seen electrons? How can they exist if no one have ever seen them? Yet, evidence points to their existence, but there is no proof. Is it not a leap of faith in believing in it?
Ahhh, the placebo effect. That truly is a mystery unto itself. No one really truly understands that phenomenom. But what is your beef with it? It doesn’t harm anyone. Have you ever heard of the nocebo effect? Psychology is a strange thing.
3) What?
4) I guess I won’t answer a rhetorical question.
5) Same as 4.
6) Are we debating the existence of God? I doubt either you or I can convince each other.
7) What again?
8) True, there are many denominations of Christianity, but science has many "denominations" within it too. In molecular biology, for example, how does RNA polymerase work? There are 3 models, and scientists are split between them. I know you guys don’t hear alot about it (since you’re not in the field) but there are alot of factions going to head to head. Or how about puntuated vs. graduated evolution?
Christianity split during the time of reformation in the Catholic church. Martin Luther, then started his own little church, and after time other little groups that disagreed with the Vatican split off. So, in essence, the Catholic church is the original church. In numbers, we outnumber all other Christian denominations combined.
A little history on the Bible: The earliest translations on the Hebrew scriptures (the Old Testament) was into Greek. It was written by Jewish scholars in around 3 BC. Christians began to translate the Aramaic sayings of Jesus, and other early Christian materials, into Greek too (New Testment). The Bible started to be translated into other languages other than Greek for missionary purposes, although Greek was the main language of the Mediterranean world.
When Christianity spread into the Roman Empire, St. Jerome translated it into Latin. This version became known as the "Vulgate".
The English version that most Protestants used back then was the King James Version. The Catholics used Douay-Rheims (named for the French cities where George Martin translated them in). This version was used until the New American Bible replaced it in the 1970s.
Now, there are most commonly 12 English versions. If you want to know them all, ask me and I’ll write in another post. This post is already getting too long.
Now, Dickson, the denominations are not divided because the Bibles are different. They’re not; the Catholic edition just has extra chapters. It’s disagreement on sacraments, and other traditions. Ask me a specific denomination and I’ll tell you what they don’t agree with the Catholics on.
9) Huh? What are you? 12 years old?
Oooooh, more points. I’ll get back to you after I eat supper. Or tomorrow. Depends if the Oilers win.
I find it ironic how God loves everyone yet he punishes many to Hell. Even if the only sin the person committed was not believing in God…which brings back the question did everyone born before Jesus goto Hell?
Granted, science does require a leap of faith but science is way more concrete than religion and as we progress, science finds better ways to reinforce or disprove past theories. Furthermore, the very tools in scientific exploration like microscopes are heavily based on mathematics – something that cannot be disputed. I admit most theories will never be fully proven but the evidence backing it can be quite overwhelming. We cannot see an electron (at least not yet) but we do have very convincing evidence of its existence from bombs, cars, batteries etc. When things don’t make sense, like a medical miracle, we attribute it to God’s doing. But years later, modern science comes in with a rational explanation or better treatment methods and are thus able to replicate such miracles. This may not be true for all cases but certainly science has had quite the negative effect on religion. In essence, like you said in your other post, God doesn’t control the will of the people and thus God is powerless to save peope from terrorists. God does not seem to be the one behind medical miracles as more "miracles" occur with each passing year and if you live in America. So where does God fit in? He fits in whenever something can’t be explained for the time being. With the rate things are going, every passing year will require religious people to make a bigger leap of faith.
The Bibles ARE different. Its not just a mere extra chapter or two. There ARE contradictions. If the traditions are different, does that not mean the Bible from which they derive their traditions are different? As well, I point you to my question in my previous post (near the bottom) to further prove the differences are more than just an extra chapter.
Lastly, I don’t recall ever saying I have a beef with the placebo effect or it being harmful. I’m merely offering it as an explanation.
My views on this the Catholic version. Don’t think this is every denomination. Some of them are akin to cults…..very exclusive, and close-minded views. "Only we can go to heaven." Pfft, give me a break. Heaven will be a very small place indeed.
Anyhoo…
1) Everyone who lived before the birth of Christ did not go to hell if they lived virtuous lives. First, they had to go to purgatory to work off their sins, then they can go to heaven. Just like the rest of us. I know for sure I won’t go straight into heaven. A prof and TA raper? Geez 😛
2) Dickson, I’m quite impressed with your Bible knowledge. Did you actually read them yourself, or did you get off someone else’s anti-religion spiel?
The passages you describe are punishments meted out by God. Did you read the chapters in it’s entirety? I don’t think you should critique the Bible if you haven’t even read it in context.
3) They got physical evidence because maybe they were with Jesus. Are you with Him right now? You should ask when you are.
4) Every sort of major religion has variations on those rules. Doesn’t this show that there is ONE God? Also, I’d be scared if a religion didn’t have those rules.
Yes, the Beatitudes is in Jewish literature. Did you not stop to think Jesus WAS Jewish, preaching to Jewish people? I mean, the Old Testament is part of the Torah (Hebrew Scriptures).
5) In Matthew and Mark, Jesus does say that (which is actually Jesus reciting Psalm 22, not him blaming God for forsaking him….not a lot of people know that), but in Matt 27:50 and Mark 15:37, it says Jesus says something else before He dies, but they do not elaborate. In John and Luke, they sort of mean the same thing. Since we are reading the English version, I don’t think we can actually comment on the exactness of the quotes. I’ll ask a linguistic prof I know about that. He knows how to read Greek and Hebrew.
(Dickson, do you have the King James Version of the Bible? The quotes you pull out seems to me that you do.)
I’ll watch it as soon as I can and then read these posts and arguements
who cares! let’s go to Miami and all of our discussions can have pina colada’s and hot bitches on sand
Beans, I agree with you on many points except one. I have read the Bible throughly and in context and have never found where it says that we go to purgatory. What I have read and studied is that salvation is received by grace thorough faith, not of our selves, it is a gift from God, not of works so that no man can boast. (Eph. 2:8,9) I have not read the Catholic Bible. Are there passages in the extra books that mention purgatory?
Another point is that the Catholic church is the original church. The church of the book of acts is. The origional church was set up with no intentions of denominations, Catholicism included. So, to answer the question of which denomination is right, none are. If there was supposed to be a specific one, Paul would have said so in the Bible. I personally attend a non-denominational Bible college and church. But, the fact that there are so many different denominations only adds to the validity of the Christian faith. For the most part we all belive in the basic foudations of Christianity (one God in three parts but sill only one, the creation of the world, the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ, there are more) A lot of the denominations a from difference in opinion in traditions and practices, but, if you just live your life based on the Bible you’re fine and don’t need to pick a denomination to follow. My belief is that when all the Christinas get to heaven and ask God which one was right He’ll say none, the Bible is right.
As far as math and science. As I said I go to a Christian college, and the prof that I had fo biology my freshman year is one of the top bio-chemists in the country and has done extensive work for the government. He became a Christian by trying to disprove Christianity and God through science. Many of our professors in the math department came to faith in similar ways. My history prof is one of the few people in the world that has the highest possible acess to the dead sea scrolls and is one of the top archeologists in the world. Again he was saved by trying to prove Christianity wrong with historical evidence. Dickson, you are educated, but I highly doubt you are as educated as these men and women. I know I’m not and I most likely never will be.
The last words of Jesus are not as important as His death. Like beans said, the two different phrases mean the same thing, Christs job on earth is over for now.
No matter what you guys say, I believe there is a God up there that watches over us and lets us learn from our mistakes and loves us. How do I know He loves us? Because without His love we would not exist. So stop debating over this. Whoever wants to believe, fine, whoever doesn’t, fine with that too. So be quiet and enjoy life because, althought you guys don’t think so, life it’s gift, and we take it too much for granted.
By the way, the Passion of the Christ is a very good movie.
out of nowhere…
im a 20-year old college student and do not wish to argue with any of you guys here. i just want to point out some stuff w/c also bother me (as a sign of growing up, i guess)… it would be nice if you guys could hear me out.
if there is one great thing i’ve learned from studying philosophy and theology, and from analyzing my own experiences, it is this: not everything in this world is commensureable. one cannot always compare all things as to whether they are important or not, true or not, by the same standards. there are aspects of our lives which largely depend on concrete tangible evidence (e.g. science, in which numbers, formulas, and equations, data are compulsory), yet there are ones which mainly depend on "non-something’s" or "non-somebody’s". an example of the former would be the chemical tests (Lucas and chromic acid tests for the presence of primary and secondary alcohols). on the other hand, a non-somebody could be explained by the ff: when you love your parents, you don’t love them because of the facts about them (e.g. their names, their birthdates and -places, etc. which were only imposed on them); you love your parents because of that something within them which could not be encompassed by given details about them… (i hope u get my point). similarly, you do not believe in your friend due to the "somebody" in him/her, that "somebody" who can be known by thousands of other people whom he/she encounters. you have faith in your friend because of that "non-somebody" in him/her who shares a special relationship with you, that "non-somebody" who makes you feel comfortable and proud of who you are. this breeds faith in that friend.
thus, in life, although people normally are stuck in looking for answers to endless questions which need scientific proof (this is what the workaday world does to us), there are other and personally, more significant factors which we do value. this, i think, is the basic foundation of believing, of religion.
i, as a roman-catholic, respect people who do not believe. may i ask my fellow believers to try and do the same. as for the non-believers, respect is also what we ask for in return.
thanks, guys and God bless!
tee-hee! 🙂
get over it
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ANYMORE SHUT THE HELL UP
There is no such thing as purgatory-where do you people get this stuff? If you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are going to heaven-if you don’t, you are going to hell. You do not work off your sins. Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sins and by accepting Him you accept His blood to cover you in the sight of God when yu die.
I got to this site while searching for something else on The Passion and ended up reading through the majority of the "debate". I am a Christian. I just have a few things to say and I say them with love.
1) The Bible has more evidence than any other historical document. We have found approximately 25,000 complete and partial copies of the New Testament alone. That is more than any other historical book. The Iliad (second in number of manuscripts found) has only 643.
2) There are no contradictions in the Bible.
Many of the alleged contradictions come from the inability to understand the basic principles of interpreting ancient literature.
3)Jesus is love because God is love and Jesus is God.
4) God does not force punishment on people and send them to hell. People choose to go there on their own. God has provided us proof after proof that He exsists, anyone that chooses not to believe has his/her opinion respected by God. Would we want a God that forced us to believe something?
5)I am not Catholic and don’t believe in purgatory, the people before Jesus’ time got saved by faith not by works, just as we do today. Jesus crucifixion may have occured at a certain time in history but God looks at past, present, future as one. Jesus death on the cross saved those from the past who had faith in God, just as it saved me in the future.
6)I just said above that I don’t agree with my fellow Christian on here about purgatory and some people say that proves that Christianity is not true since we can’t even agree. Don’t blame God for our disagreements, it goes back to that choice thing.
7)I would like to ask all unbelievers out there to read Josh McDowell’s book "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict". It is long but anyone who thinks there is no proof that Christianity is true should check it out. It may surprise you how much evidence there is. Christianity is a thinking person’s religion. God never asks us to believe something purely on faith, He always gives a reason to believe.
Jesus represented love, the purest form which
is not of this earth. His message was to let us
know that living compassionately is the only we could exist here and there after. The various bibles may have differences between them however the core meaning remains concrete throughout them all. Faith, hope and love. These three gifts
equal peace and harmony. You either beleive in
peace and harmony or you do not.
wow…. i missed a lot eh mack?
Bkong
God is love